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TheRoonBa

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Dec 28 08 3:47 AM

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Please could we use the term "Netherlands/Nederlanden/Nederland" for the country and not Holland. It is confusing to use Holland, because this forum is also used for the discussion of matches of States and Provinces of countries, and Holland is the name of only 2 provinces of the Netherlands. I think some people in Friesland may not like the use of "Holland" for the whole country. I know that a lot (probably most) people use Holland, but it doesn't change the fact that it is not the official name of the country.
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#3 [url]

Mar 24 16 11:04 PM

nfm24 wrote:
An iconic legend, both as player and coach.


Always played the game his own way even wore the No.14 at a time when there were only 1-11 squad numbers for the first team. Gave a lot to the game. Will be missed.  RIP Johan Cruyff. (1947-2016)


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#4 [url]

Mar 25 16 7:40 PM

A very sad news in a very sad week. How I would have liked to meet him, just for a handshake or a chat. I remember with pleasure one of his most famous quotes from 2000, if my memory doesn't betray me: “Italy can never beat you, but you can always lose to Italy”. A football genius.

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#5 [url]

Mar 26 16 11:21 AM

Luca wrote:
A very sad news in a very sad week. How I would have liked to meet him, just for a handshake or a chat. I remember with pleasure one of his most famous quotes from 2000, if my memory doesn't betray me: “Italy can never beat you, but you can always lose to Italy”. A football genius.
Indeed, apart from a football genius also a genius with words.
"Italianen kennen niet van je winnen maar je ken wel van ze verliezen". (1995 before European Cup final Ajax vs AC Milan, Cruijff was coach of FC Barcelona at the time).

Another one: "Als Italianen één kans krijgen, maken ze er twee" ("If Italians get one chance, they make two").

More quotes on https://citaten.net/zoeken/citaten_van-johan_cruijff.html , but I'm not sure Google Translate will translate them correctly...

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#6 [url]

Mar 30 16 6:26 PM

TheRoonBa wrote:
Please could we use the term "Netherlands/Nederlanden/Nederland" for the country and not Holland. It is confusing to use Holland, because this forum is also used for the discussion of matches of States and Provinces of countries, and Holland is the name of only 2 provinces of the Netherlands. I think some people in Friesland may not like the use of "Holland" for the whole country. I know that a lot (probably most) people use Holland, but it doesn't change the fact that it is not the official name of the country.

Were you watching ITV's coverage last night? Apparently some viewers had the same issues as you and called in to complain about use of the name Holland. The commentary team responded after half-time by acknowledging the country's real name, but then noting the two provinces, the national tourism website Holland.org, the Dutch people being relaxed about the whole thing, and most importantly, that more people in England know it as Holland, we're used to it, so that's what we're calling it.

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#7 [url]

Mar 30 16 7:19 PM

I never hear their supporters call "Nederland", they always use "Holland" and even if this name is not exact, everybody knows what we are talking about.

In written language it would certainly be more logical to write "Netherlands or Nederland or Pays Bas" 

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#8 [url]

Mar 30 16 7:56 PM

mattsanger92 wrote:
[...] that more people in England know it as Holland, we're used to it, so that's what we're calling it.
And most Dutchmen will call the UK England instead of United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland..., because we're used to it ;-)

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#9 [url]

Mar 31 16 12:26 AM

Let us resolve this matter once and for all, by renaming it Cruyffland.     Or should it be Cruijffland?    AAAAHHH!

This all sounds a bit highbrow for Andy Townsend and co, were they smoking opium? Hopefully England will now arrange a quadrangular tournament with Ivory Coast, Burma and Northern Cyprus.
Then ITV will also secure the rights to broadcast Saint-Martin vs Sint Maarten, and Saba vs Sabah.

holland.org is about an American town. Presumably they meant holland.com Note that nederland.com and netherlands.com appear to be for sale.

It was common in the Soviet era to refer to the USSR as simply "Russia". Perhaps we must also refer to "America" as the USA. And maybe Brits will stop using "Europe" to mean everybody but them.

Last Edited By: nfm24 Mar 31 16 12:28 AM. Edited 1 time.

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#10 [url]

Apr 1 16 8:29 PM

Holland.org was either their mistake or me mishearing, minor issue in the conversation as a whole, also Andy Townsend was surprisingly nowhere near this, think he was relieved of his duties last year, the other day Glenn Hoddle was Clive's sidekick. Personally I use Holland from time to time just as shorthand, I know the facts but The Netherlands can be a mouthful sometimes...

I completely agree with the annoying generalisations you mentioned though, like how that classic "Russian" team of Euro '88 called up most of their players from Dynamo Kiev... using very quick and simplistic 'club = nationality' measurements only 4/20 players in that squad were actually from the motherland...

The "Europe" thing is the most annoying though. Well-intentioned as they might be I'm not a fan of the wording when someone asks me how my "holiday to Europe" was, as though I haven't spent every second of my life in the place with that name. As a leading authority on the enlightenment what would you suggest as an alternative for Brits describing mainland Europe? "The Continent", perhaps?

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#11 [url]

Apr 2 16 12:13 AM

mattsanger92 wrote:
As a leading authority on the enlightenment what would you suggest as an alternative for Brits describing mainland Europe? "The Continent", perhaps?
North Gibraltar.

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TheRoonBa

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#12 [url]

Apr 2 16 8:54 PM

What is important is to consider the opinions of the majority of people who do not live in the 2 provinces of South and North Holland. If they prefer (the) Netherlands, it should be called (the) Netherlands. It's hardly a mouthful - 3 syllables instead of 2. Also, "Holland" seems to be accepted in sporting terms by the same people who won't accept it in other terms.  However, I have spoken to people in the past who didn't realise that Holland and the Netherlands were the same country - that's what happens when you have 2 reasonably common terms for the same place.

In any case, Switzerland derives its name from its central canton (Schwyz) and nobody cares about that...

I think we should always try to be correct - especially when it is not difficult. Hence, we should never refer to the UK as England (or even Britain). However, most people don't care, so it's a losing battle.


To be strictly correct in English - we should translate "Nether" and "Hol" and call it either "Lowland" or "Woodland".

Last Edited By: TheRoonBa Apr 2 16 9:28 PM. Edited 2 times.

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#13 [url]

Apr 2 16 11:23 PM

In the case of Holland/Netherlands, it is only the ambiguity of "Holland" that causes the problem. If "Holland" was *only* a colloquial name for the same country (as most people assume) it would be pedantic to insist that it was wrong.

In the case of, say South Korea / Republic of Korea, the colloquial name is unambiguous and is perhaps informal, but not wrong. The same country is also colloquially known as simply "Korea" in some contexts, which is wrong (obviously).

Other examples which are somewhere inbetween (not exactly wrong, but just a bit sloppy) may include just Bosnia instead of Bosnia and Herzegovina, or perhaps even Russia instead of the Russian Federation.

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TheRoonBa

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#17 [url]

Apr 3 16 6:14 PM

Federal Republic of Germany was called West Germany, mostly, in my experience.

In terms of the political status of the country "Republic" etc. are largely not needed. But we always hear "the Republic" when people are referring to Ireland (which is the name of the country).

Czech Republic is an obvious exception - but "Czechia" does exist (though I have only heard foreign people using it in English). For some reason, it never caught on.

Dominican Republic also (due to Dominica already existing).

Central African Republic and United States of America also are accepted. Technically, stripping the political status would give Central Africa and also America (which obviously refer to bigger geographical units encompassing many countries).

This insistence on China PR and IR Iran annoys me though... China and Iran are perfectly fine. We don't have P. Wales or K. Netherlands.

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#18 [url]

Apr 3 16 6:45 PM

One could understand PR China if Taiwan was also consistently called the Republic of China. The situation would then be similar to Congo and DR Congo.

I think we should return to the Enlightened idea of renaming the Netherlands to Cruyffland. Then we can do the same for other countries, and name them after one of their most famous players. France will become Zidania (having overthrown the corrupt Platinium Empire), and Spain will become Iniestan.

One possible flaw is that England would be renamed Moorea, potentially confusing with the Polynesian island...

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