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#41 [url]

Jan 25 12 10:01 PM

Re: Africa

mcruic wrote:
In Neil's data above, it seems Tanganyika withdrew from another group entirely (that involving Ethiopia, Sudan and Uganda).


Ah, that's my fault I read that they had entered, but found no results, so I assumed they withdrew... the choice of where to write it was an arbitrary one.

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#42 [url]

Jan 26 12 12:05 PM

Tanzania's matches are ghosts.

Demostration:
Go to:
RSSSF International Country Results - Africa- Egypt-
Link to Tarek Said- Olympic Games 1960- Final Round
Understood?
The author confused "Tanzania" with "Tunisia" and erroneously repeated two times both matches (same score) : one time vs Tunisia (which is right) and one time vs Tanzania (which is wrong).

But we can find something more.
Because our Topic says:
6 Dec 1959 Ghana-Egypt 2-0
whilst Tarek Said says:
6 Dec 1959 Ghana-Egypt 2-1

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#44 [url]

Jan 26 12 2:38 PM

What is it possible?
Mistake in our Topic, about Ghana - Egypt score, YES.

But about Tanzania's matches it's NOT possible. It's certain!!
Because Tanzania (better to say Tanganika) NEVER played in 1960 OG.
Everybody, I think, has easily verified that, after connecting to RSSSF, as I suggested.

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#45 [url]

Jan 26 12 4:35 PM

About Ghana vs Egypt: possible, but more likely that Dr Said made a mistake, but we don't have the goal-scorers or a detailed report to be absolutely sure.

About Tanganyika: I don't understand your argument.
You say that Tanganyika didn't play, and "everybody has easily verified that, after connecting to RSSSF".
I thought the whole point of such discussions is to correct the mistakes or omissions on RSSSF (and other sources)?
Otherwise, what is the point of all the posts in this topic?


I already said above, that Tanganyika entered the competition. Evidence:

RUSSIANS SEND IN ENTRY [Articles]
The Singapore Free Press, 18 February 1959, Page 15, REUTER
RUSSIA, the holders were among three new entries announced yesterday for the Olympic Games soccer tournament in Rome next year. Other entries are Holland and Tanganyika which brings the total so far to 19.
All entries must ... (57 words)



So yes, it is possible that Tanganyika played vs Egypt (or some other country). Or, maybe they withdrew without playing games. Then it is also pssible that the matches are "ghosts", as you said.

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#47 [url]

Jan 26 12 5:20 PM

I don't want being misunderstood.

I said that, after verifying the RSSSF source, it's quite evident that Tanganyka didn't play in 1960 OG.
Unless you want believe that Egypt (UAR) played Tunisia and Tanzania(!!!) with the same score (home and away).
In addition: Tanzania matches are without dates and the final table of the small tnmt records only three teams.
Of course: "never say never" (in italian:"mai dire mai"), but imho the percentage that those two matches were REALLY held is (approximately) 0.001%.

It's obvious that RSSSF file should be emended.

Finally, if Tanganyka entered or not the Qualifiers is ineffective, considering they didn't play.

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#48 [url]

Jan 26 12 6:41 PM

Giampaolo wrote:
I said that, after verifying the RSSSF source, it's quite evident that Tanganyka didn't play in 1960 OG.


This is the part I don't understand... Which source? Do you mean the RSSSF list for Tanzania? Or for Egypt (link to Tarek Said)? Both of these include the questionable matches. [In fact I'm sure Barrie took them from Tarek's list.]

Or do you mean the 1960 Olympic Games file? That file does not include the matches, but is incomplete anyway (e.g. doesn't include East vs West Germany), and this discussion began because of the lack of details in that file, so obviously we should not assume completeness.

I think this is like trying to write an improved dictionary, but then discounting a potentially "new" word because it is not in the dictionary!


Unless you want believe that Egypt (UAR) played Tunisia and Tanzania(!!!) with the same score (home and away).
In addition: Tanzania matches are without dates and the final table of the small tnmt records only three teams.
Of course: "never say never" (in italian:"mai dire mai"), but imho the percentage that those two matches were REALLY held is (approximately) 0.001%.


I agree, it is unlikely, and I don't believe it personally, but occasionally such new matches are found, particularly for Africa and Asia.

Finally, if Tanganyka entered or not the Qualifiers is ineffective, considering they didn't play.


True, if it accepted as a fact that they played no games. But we don't know that for sure. Anyway, some people like to see which teams withdrew also.

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#49 [url]

Jan 26 12 7:01 PM

nfm24 wrote:
Goalscorers for 25-10-59: [Joechi Jansen 3', Ro Valerian 40'(approx) / Gerrit Niekoop 12', Leo Marcet 46']

(about Dutch Antilles 2-2 Suriname)
Nieuw Suriname, 26-10-1959:
Valerian 22'

nfm24 wrote:
referee Petrie or Patrick

(about South Korea - Taiwan)
Could it be that "Patrick" was transscribed into phonetic Chinese characters, and than transscribed back to latin characters as "Petrie"?

nfm24 wrote:
[F.McCarthy 9', Mick McGrath 14' 45', Alfie Hale 32' 81', Frits van Ierland 60' OG / Bart Hainje 34', Paul Bouwman 78', Theo Slijkhuis 81']

(about Rep. Ireland - Netherlands)
Two goals in the same minute (81', one for RoI, one for Neth.) seems highly unlikely to me, or at least it would be worth while mentioning in the report.
BTW, I found in Nieuw Suriname, 23-04-1960:
McCarthy 5', McGrath few mins. later, shortly before HT, Hale 20', nine mins. before end, Van Ierland (2nd half, OG) / Hainje 21', Bouwman 2nd half, Slijkhuis 2nd half.

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#50 [url]

Jan 26 12 8:33 PM

nfm24 wrote:

Which source? Do you mean the RSSSF list for Tanzania? Or for Egypt (link to Tarek Said)? Both of these include the questionable matches. In fact I'm sure Barrie took them from Tarek's list.


I mean the Tarek Said link. I'm sure, like you, that Barrie took the two Matches from Tarek's list and, therefore, we have them also in Tanzania's list.

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#51 [url]

Jan 26 12 11:07 PM

Here is the Times report:

image


The Times: 1-0 McCarthy (early), 2-0 McGrath (+ 10 mins), 3-0 Hale (first half), 3-1 Hainje (first half), 4-1 McGrath (just before HT), 5-1 van Ierland OG, 5-2 Bouwman , 5-3 Slijkhuis, 6-3 Hale 81'

Nieuw Suriname: 1-0 McCarthy 5', 2-0 McGrath (+ few mins), 3-0 Hale 20', 3-1 Hainje (+1'), 4-1 McGrath (just before HT), 5-1 van Ierland OG (2nd half), 5-2 Bouwman (2nd half), 5-3 Slijkhuis (2nd half), 6-3 Hale 81'

N.v.h.Noorden: FIRST HALF: McCarthy 9', McGrath 14', Hales 32', McGrath 45', Hainje ??' / SECOND HALF: van Ierland OG ??', 6-1 Hales (15' of 2nd), Bouwman (33' of 2nd), Slijkhuis (16' of 2nd)

N.v.h.Noorden is most probably wrong about either the minutes or the names associated with them, for the 2nd half.

So the best guess overall, I think, is:
McCarthy 5', McGrath 14' 45', Hale 20', van Ierland OG ??' (2nd half, 5-1), Hale 81' / Hainje 21', Bouwman (2nd half, 5-2), Slijkhuis (2nd half, 5-3)

about South Korea - Taiwan)
Could it be that "Patrick" was transscribed into phonetic Chinese characters, and than transscribed back to latin characters as "Petrie"?


Or vice versa! We can't know without a more detailed report.

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#53 [url]

Feb 15 12 10:19 PM

Finally verified this game:


27- 8-59 Afghanistan 2-5 India [Kabul]
[Ayubi, Mosa / P.K.Banerjee, Chuni Goswami, Mariappa Kempiah, M.Rehmatullah, Moloy Lahiri]

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#55 [url]

Feb 16 12 10:20 PM

I know, however it was quite typical for the players to be known as initials like this. Also in Malaysia and Singapore this is common.

Similarly about 100 years ago it was common in Britain, e.g. famous cricketer C.B.Fry, and authors G.K.Chesterton, D.H.Lawrence etc. They were simply known like this. Today there are two popular newsagent shops in Britain, W.H.Smith and R.S.McColl. The later was founded by a Scottish footballer who was one of the top players of his era.

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#56 [url]

Feb 17 12 12:40 AM

There are many ways to spell an Indian name, depending on the language of the original text.
Similarly, Chuni Goswami actually is Subimal Goswami - nicknamed Chuni.

www.soccer-db.info

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#58 [url]

Feb 17 12 2:15 PM

Indeed, as long as there are no misunderstandings it's fine.
However I really hate when sources are giving names like Mohammed and nothing else; totally impossible to tell who that is.

www.soccer-db.info

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#59 [url]

Mar 4 12 5:59 PM

From Erik Garin:


11.11.1959 in Dijon
France - Luxembourg 1-0
Scorer : 37 Quédec


22.11.1959 at Allmend Stadion in Luzern
Switzerland - France 1-2 (1-1)
Scorers : 43 Grand; 19 Quédec, 87 Coinçon
Referee : Emil Erlih (Yugoslavia)
Att: 6.200
Switzerland : Barlie, X.Stierli, Oertle, Stehrenberger, Menet, Dürr,
Grand, S.Ballaman, Resin, Gerber, Kaspar.
Trainer: Max Isler.
France : Wettstein, Polonia, Artelesa, Philippe, Bordas, Baratto,
Quédec, Ahmed, Giamarchi, Coinçon, Loncle.


27.03.1960 in Luxembourg
Luxembourg - Switzerland 0-0 (0-0)
Referee : Sörensen (Denmark)
Att: 2.500
Switzerland : Barlie, X.Stierli, Hofmann, Stehrenberger, Scheurer,
Menet, S.Ballaman, Gottardi, Dürr, Gerber, Worni.
Trainer: Max Isler.
Luxemburg : Steffen, Brenner, Hofstetter, Konter, Pascucci,
Fiedler, Dimmer, Cirelli, Pilot, Kunnert, Letsch.


10.04.1960 in Luxembourg
Luxembourg - France 5-3
Scorers: Brenner 5'pen, Theis 7', Kunnert 14', Pilot 53', Konter 75';
Ahmed 15', Quédec 40' 55'
Luxemburg : Steffen, Brenner, Hofstetter, Pascucci, Konter,
Fiedler, Theis, Cirelli, Pilot, Kunnert, Letsch.
France : Wettstein, Philippe, Polonia, Bordas, Artelesa,
Baratto, Loncle, Ahmed, Giamarchi, Coinçon, Quédec.



13.04.1960 at St.Jakob Stadion in Basel
Switzerland - Luxembourg 2-2 (1-0)
Scorers : 18 56 Gottardi; Kunnert 72, Brenner 87
Referee : Milan Fencl (Czecheslovakia)
Att: 6.500
Switzerland : Barlie, X.Stierli, Oertle, Stehrenberger, Bertogliatti,
Menet, S.Ballaman, Gottardi, Dürr, Hofmann, Worni.
Trainer: Max Isler.
Luxemburg : Steffen, Brenner, Hofstetter, Pascucci, Konter,
Fiedler, Letsch, Cirelli, Pilot, Kunnert, Theis.


01.05.1960 at "Stade de Rugby" in Chambéry
France - Switzerland 1-0 (1-0)
Scorer: 37 Aigony
Referee : Echeverria (Spain)
Att: 5.000
Switzerland : Barlie, X.Stierli, Hofmann, Stehrenberger, Menet,
Müllestein II, S.Ballaman, Dürr, Matter, Worni, Gerber.
Trainer: Max Isler.
France : Samoy, Polonia, Bodin, Philippe, Bordas, Artelesa,
Quédec, Ahmed, Giamarchi, Aigony, Loncle.

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#60 [url]

Mar 4 12 10:14 PM

nfm24 wrote:

10.04.1960 in Luxembourg
Luxembourg - France 3-5
Scorers: Brenner 5'pen, Theis 7', Kunnert 14', Pilot 53', Konter 75';
Ahmed 15', Quédec 40' 55'
Luxemburg : Steffen, Brenner, Hofstetter, Pascucci, Konter,
Fiedler, Theis, Cirelli, Pilot, Kunnert, Letsch.
France : Wettstein, Philippe, Polonia, Bordas, Artelesa,
Baratto, Loncle, Ahmed, Giamarchi, Coinçon, Quédec.


Luxembourg-France 5-3, as previously known and as confirmed by scorers.

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