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TheRoonBa

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#21 [url]

Jun 11 14 10:51 AM

Unfortunately, one of the most controversial World Cup wins of all time - 'sponsored' by Mussolini. The 1938 World Cup was more worthy of applause. Italy would never have won the 1934 World Cup without Mussolini's personal intervention.  If I were Italian, I don't think I would celebrate this 1934 win, because it was tainted.

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#22 [url]

Jun 11 14 11:12 AM

At the 1934 Italy even fielded some players who were not legible to play for Italy as according to FIFA rules at the time. Some players violated this rule as one can read here. This version even explained it more briefly.

  • De Argentijn Monti had in 1931 nog gespeeld voor Argentinië (Monti played for Argentina in 1931).
  • De Braziliaan Guarisi woonde nog geen drie jaar in Italië (Brazilian Guarisi did not live for three years in Italy).
  • Guaita speelde in 1933 nog voor Argentinië en zelfs nog voor een lokale Argentijnse ploeg. (Guaita played in 1933 even for a local Argentine squad).
  • Demaría was de vierde speler, die met Argentinië in 1931 nog tegen Paraguay had gespeeld. (Demaría played in 1931 with Argentina against Paraguay).


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#23 [url]

Jun 11 14 6:11 PM

TheRoonBa wrote:
If I were Italian, I don't think I would celebrate this 1934 win, because it was tainted.
I have discussed this matter several times with an Italian friend of mine and he always says to me that for him only the result matters, not the way it has been achieved. He also told me it is not Italy's fault that FIFA accepted Italy fielded some ineligible players.

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TheRoonBa

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#24 [url]

Jun 11 14 9:12 PM

That's OK, I guess, but it can be seen how such an idea can spread into other things that are more important than football. "As long as Italy wins, it doesn't matter which countries we fight against in the war".  It's not the players' fault - but the fact remains that it wasn't a 'real' victory.  Even an Italian should be able to see that.  It was much more than just strange referee decisions - the referees were chosen personally by Mussolini.  It was all a big fascist propaganda show for Mussolini - the Italian equivalent of Hitler's 1936 Olympics in Berlin.

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#26 [url]

Jun 12 14 11:34 AM

TheRoonBa wrote:
That's OK, I guess, but it can be seen how such an idea can spread into other things that are more important than football. "As long as Italy wins, it doesn't matter which countries we fight against in the war".  It's not the players' fault - but the fact remains that it wasn't a 'real' victory.  Even an Italian should be able to see that.  It was much more than just strange referee decisions - the referees were chosen personally by Mussolini.  It was all a big fascist propaganda show for Mussolini - the Italian equivalent of Hitler's 1936 Olympics in Berlin.
Very strange that the leader of the host country can decide which referee will lead their matches. The "WM Enzyclopädie 1930-2006" shows a German cartoon with a big referee and a very, very small and very, very anxious player. It says: Italiens zwölfter Spieler. Die großen Schiedsricheter gegen die andern (referring to the referee) which mens Italy's 12th player. The big referees agaist the others. Another arrow refers to the very smal and anxious player: und gegen Italien, which means: and against Italy.

In the book, which has also small match reports of every WC match, there is no misunderstanding at all about the way Italy was helped by the referees. Spain were denied clear goals and even penatlties in both quarter finals. Also Austria (semi final) and Czechoslovakia (final) were denied several penalties. In these matches several Italian players should have been send off due to scandalous fouls.

On page 83 there is also another interesting remark, this time at the match report of Italy vs Norway at the 1938 World Cup first round. Just after Brustaad equalised in the 83rd minute he scored another goal which referee Beranek disallowed for incomprehensible reasons......

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#27 [url]

Jun 12 14 11:37 AM

BTW the matches you showed are very beautiful indeed. Very beautiful.

Another BTW. As a Dutchman I should admit Netherlands qualified for the 1974 Worldchampionships thanks to a mistake made by the referee. In the decisive, last, qualifying match Netherlands vs Belgium a clear Jan Verheyen goal was disallowed because of off-side, but it was not. If that goal was allowed (as it should have been) the Belgians would have won 1-0 and qualified for the 1974 World Cup Tournament.

Last Edited By: Fast Midfielder Jun 12 14 11:42 AM. Edited 1 time.

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#28 [url]

Jun 12 14 2:04 PM

I don't think anybody should read too much into the early World Cups, regardless of whatever "home advantages" were used.
1930 was played without any good European teams, and 1934 and 1938 without any proper teams from Argentina and Uruguay.
And of course, the British teams were absent.

In those days the World was still too big for a competition like this to be meaningful. Travel costs ruled out many of the best contenders, and the tournament had not yet established any kind of importance globally.

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#29 [url]

Jun 15 14 9:50 AM

Well, as an Italian I admit that was surely the least limpid success. The Olympic triumph in 1936 and the 1938 World title were certainly cleaner and more deserved.
Obviously Italy took advantage of a lot of scandalous episodes, but in my opinion the gravest point is the one indicated by Fast Midfielder about the presumed "ineligible players". If that was true, it would represent an authentic scandal. I have never been able to understand whether that rule existed at that time or not. Certainly if it did exist, it was not respected, because almost all the naturalized players fielded by Italy in 1934 didn't observe the so called "three years" rule.
And in that case, FIFA would have been the greatest responsible.
But I repeat: I'm not 100% sure that rule was valid at that time. If it was valid, it was completely and clamorously ignored. And this would give birth to serious suspicions.

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#30 [url]

Jun 15 14 11:32 AM

It was not the only foul play at the 1934 World Cup. In the qualifying tournament Romania was punished for fieldig Iuliu (or Gyula) Baratky, aka as the Baratky case. However, changing the match result of Switzerland 2-2 Romania into a 2-0 Romanian defeat, which had no consequences at all as one can read here.

Last Edited By: Fast Midfielder Jun 15 14 11:37 AM. Edited 2 times.

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#31 [url]

Jun 15 14 2:31 PM

The discussion about Italy's win in 1934 WC (now partially extended also to 1938 WC) seems unending and occupying the space of more than one topic.
I don't want to be polemical, but let me free to make just some comments.
I am not at all a Mussolini's fan (not at all, I repeat), but if there is someone who can affirm, without doubt, that Mussolini chose the referees in 1934, is there someone knowing who chose   Kenneth Aston and Byron Moreno? Those two terrible referees sent Italy off  1962 WC (Chile) and 2002 WC (South Korea).
BTW, as Italian, I am very happy to celebrate the 1934, 1936 and 1938 wins, without feeling ashamed of it .
Some Nations didn't participate or sent weak teams? OK. In Italy we say:  "gli assenti hanno sempre torto" ( absentees are always wrong).      

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#33 [url]

Jun 15 14 6:49 PM

3! Giampaolo forgot Mário Vianna, the Brazilian referee that knocked Italy out in 1954 (against Switzerland, once again the host country, of course sAng_angry2.gif)

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#34 [url]

Jun 15 14 6:54 PM

nfm24 wrote:
Two bad referees in 40 years isn't unusual!

If it are only two in 40 years it is not that bad. BTW the worst referee I can remember is Marcel Bacou from France who refereed the Spain 1-0 Holland match on 23-01-1980 on a waterlogged pitch in Vigo. When after 18 minutes electricity felt out he was very obvious: if this deficit was not restored within 15 minutes the match was off! 66 minutes later, when some of the Dutch players were already in the bus, he ordered them to go back and continue the match, which due to the waterlogged pitch had nothing to do with football. Finally Spain won 1-0 by a discutable penalty kick.

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#35 [url]

Jun 15 14 8:05 PM

nfm24 wrote:
Two bad referees in 40 years isn't unusual!

I didn't say "two ( better to say three, as Luca correctly noted) bad referees in 40 years".
I said that those "terrible referees" sent Italy off the WC's.
And all of them (3) acted in favor of the host Country!!
 


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#36 [url]

Jun 15 14 9:52 PM

Giampaolo wrote:

And all of them (3) acted in favor of the host Country!!
 
It is almost quite sure they did because FIFA ordered them to do so. But let's go back to what's he most beautiful match. For a Dutchman the increadible 5-1 win over Spain is an unforgettable match.



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#37 [url]

Jun 16 14 11:00 AM

There will always be bad and even corrupt referees. But personally I don't think that Italy have suffered particularly more than other countries over all their history. Yes in the individual cases you mention perhaps, but in any discussion like this one can cite individual examples on either side of the argument.
For example Italy's dubious penalty vs Australia in 2006. Or Italy vs Spain 1994 : Tassotti's elbow on Luis Enrique in the last minute should have been a penalty for Spain.

Referees make mistakes and home countries get refereeing bias - whether subconscious or deliberately, is almost irrelevant. It happens.
The referee is part of the game, and he has to be treated just like any other facet (weather, pitch conditions, etc)

In 2002 Italy should have been able to win against Korea with any referee. Yes there were many decisions against Italy. But also, Vieri missed two amazing chances to score, Gattuso and Tomassi also missed good chances, and Panucci screwed up to give Korea their equaliser in the 88th minute, so perhaps these players should be blamed too. Or Maldini who allowed Ahn Jung-Hwan to jump over him to score a header, hardly his forte! If the referee so wanted Italy to lose, why did he allow Italy to lead 1-0 for over 70 minutes of the game?
It was not only the referee. He was terrible, perhaps even corrupt, but it was not only him.

A good book if you want to know about FIFA influencing referee choices etc is "How they stole the game" by David Yallop. For example, you can read there how Havelange influenced the choice of referees for Brazil's games in 1994.

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#38 [url]

Jun 16 14 12:39 PM

nfm24 wrote:
There will always be bad and even corrupt referees. But personally I don't think that Italy have suffered particularly more than other countries over all their history.
The best way to find out is using modern technology on all available moving pictures of international matches by judging following situations:
1. disallowed goals that should have been allowed.
2. allowed goals that should have been disallowed.
3. referee whistlded for off-side when there was no off-side.
4. referee did not whistle for off-side when there was off-side.
5. giving erroraneously a penalty-kick, corner-kick, free kick close to the penalty box.
6. not giving erroraneously a penalty-kick, corner-kick, free kick close to the penalty box.

On most occasions on 100 wrong decisions 50 would have been in favour and 50 in disadvantage of one country. May be 51-49 or 49-50, but that won't be shocking. If it will be shocking if it will be 60-40 or 40-60, something like that.

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#39 [url]

Jun 16 14 4:39 PM

nfm24 wrote:
In 2002 Italy should have been able to win against Korea with any referee. Yes there were many decisions against Italy. But also, Vieri missed two amazing chances to score, Gattuso and Tomassi also missed good chances, and Panucci screwed up to give Korea their equaliser in the 88th minute, so perhaps these players should be blamed too. Or Maldini who allowed Ahn Jung-Hwan to jump over him to score a header, hardly his forte! If the referee so wanted Italy to lose, why did he allow Italy to lead 1-0 for over 70 minutes of the game?
It was not only the referee. He was terrible, perhaps even corrupt, but it was not only him.

I agree with you, Neil.  Italy should have been able to win against South Korea in any case: Moreno or not Moreno. This has been always my opinion. And I add, to all the mistakes you cited, also those of Trapattoni. To reach the target, a good couch should have in his mind some alternate solutions on the field : not hoping in the help from a bowl of holy water!!!
What I wanted to say, in my previous post, is: of course Mussolini had no right to choose the referees and his action (if done) must be blamed. But also all delinquent actions that affect a regular development of a match, like the three examples (damaging Italy) I cited must be blamed.         


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#40 [url]

Jun 16 14 4:46 PM

Sorry!!!!!
"Coach" (Trapattoni), not "couch". Sometimes my Enghish language fails.

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