Remove this ad

#81 [url]

Nov 25 15 10:09 AM

nfm24 wrote:
In the future, we will be Enlightened and headaches will be solved in the straightforward way.  And there will definitely be no CHAN.

How optimistic of you.
I can actually imagine FIFA deleating CHAN matches and trying to make us to forget such thing ever existed..

www.soccer-db.info - football internationals

Quote    Reply   
Remove this ad

#83 [url]

Nov 25 15 10:51 AM

SDb wrote:

I can actually imagine FIFA deleating CHAN matches and trying to make us to forget such thing ever existed..

Not all CHAN matches are restricted matches. If both NT's that play a match usually use home based players... So far most of them can be deleted, but not all of them.

Quote    Reply   

#84 [url]

Nov 25 15 12:12 PM

A very similar situation occurred with the Olympic Games. Rules stated that only amateurs could participate in the competion, so it was a restricted tournament, because professionals players couldn't be employed. But we know that many countries whose leagues had an amateur status, did send their strongest teams, so they didn't have restrictions. And yet, all the 1952 and 1956 Olympic Games matches (and many others) have recently been deleted from FIFA's list.

In my opinion, CHAN is an official tournament, but not for "A" teams, because restrictions affect the players' eligibility. In my opinion it is just an official competition for non-"A" teams, like, for example, the Olympic Games.

Quote    Reply   

#85 [url]

Nov 25 15 3:01 PM

Luca wrote:

In my opinion, CHAN is an official tournament, but not for "A" teams, because restrictions affect the players' eligibility. In my opinion it is just an official competition for non-"A" teams, like, for example, the Olympic Games.

Very clear. But if i.e. Swaziland and Lesotho usually fielddomestic playrs a Swaziland vs Lesotho match should have the same status as i.e. Italy vs Spain at the 1928 Olympics.

Quote    Reply   

#86 [url]

Nov 25 15 5:43 PM

That argument is OK up to a point, but what if a team usually fields young players, then maybe U23 and U21 games can have "A" status? Or if a team fields military players, then military championships can be "A"?

Quote    Reply   
avatar

TheRoonBa

Posts: 5,503 Site Admin

#87 [url]

Nov 25 15 7:01 PM

nfm24 wrote:
That argument is OK up to a point, but what if a team usually fields young players, then maybe U23 and U21 games can have "A" status? Or if a team fields military players, then military championships can be "A"?
As you know, a few military national teams were the same as regular national teams in the past (Iraq, for example).

Age, as a restrictor, is a bit different I think, in that it doesn't involve choice (you can't choose to become younger/older, but you can choose (theoretically) not to join the military (although you may be killed/imprisoned for soing so), and you can choose not to play abroad, even though you are the best player in the world and come from Djibouti, because you would rather earn $50 per week and be close to your family than live ina  foreign country and be a millionaire.

Quote    Reply   

#88 [url]

Nov 25 15 8:31 PM

Likewise, the same argument would logically then work in reverse and matches for teams which imposed their own selection restrictions would not count as "A". E.g. friendlies with weakened sides like SDb is talking about, but also various selections of convenience or principle over the years, right back as far as the 1800s where Scotland didn't select players based in the English league.

Quote    Reply   

#90 [url]

Nov 26 15 1:07 AM

This furrow has been ploughed.

Quote    Reply   
Remove this ad

#93 [url]

Nov 26 15 12:49 PM

do they grow easily ?


anyway, this is a neverending story....I agree that competitions with restrictons can never count as A-matches, even for teams where there this makes no or not much difference....For friendly games, it is clear that FA can field the team they want and consider it a full international. In CECAFA the tournament is for full national teams, so even if a guest temas field a youth or B-team, I consider them as A-games....In 1990 Egypt fielded a B-team in Final tournament of the Africa Cup, because they wanted the A-team to prepare for the WC....I think we should consider those games as full internationals...  

Quote    Reply   

#94 [url]

Nov 26 15 2:06 PM

pieter wrote:
I agree that competitions with restrictons can never count as A-matches, even for teams where there this makes no or not much difference....

So no Olympic Games matches anyhow? Imho this is not fair. For a long time most of the competitors fielded their strongest teams as well as (in most cases) their opponents.

Quote    Reply   
avatar

TheRoonBa

Posts: 5,503 Site Admin

#96 [url]

Nov 26 15 3:51 PM

pieter wrote:

do they grow easily ?


anyway, this is a neverending story....I agree that competitions with restrictons can never count as A-matches, even for teams where there this makes no or not much difference....For friendly games, it is clear that FA can field the team they want and consider it a full international. In CECAFA the tournament is for full national teams, so even if a guest temas field a youth or B-team, I consider them as A-games....In 1990 Egypt fielded a B-team in Final tournament of the Africa Cup, because they wanted the A-team to prepare for the WC....I think we should consider those games as full internationals...  


I agree with you - except for guest teams in tournaments such as CECAFA.  For example, it is clear that we cannot count Ivory Coast matches as A matches.  Ivory Coast FA makes a clear distinction between its A national team and its CHAN national team.  Many times, guest teams who are much too good for the competition are invited to give it more "prestige".  Ivory Coast at CECAFA and Ghana at COSAFA are clear examples of those FAs that decided the CHAN team was the correct team to send.  Ivory Coast lost to both Rwanda and Tanzania at the 2010 CECAFA.  It is not fair to count these as losses in the Ivory Coast records, as the A team did not play.

Likewise, Ghana lost to Madagascar at the 2015 COSAFA Cup and were beaten easily 3-0 by Zambia.

In these cases, the tournaments may be for senior national teams, but this seems to apply only to the teams from those zones, and not guest teams.  The difference between Ghana A/Ghana CHAN and Ivory Coast A/Ivory Coast CHAN is too considerable to just ignore.

Quote    Reply   

#97 [url]

Nov 26 15 4:55 PM

pieter wrote:
I agree that competitions with restrictons can never count as A-matches, even for teams where there this makes no or not much difference...
[...]
I mean in present times: Africa games, Asian games, Olympics in the past must be seen as A-matches...

I'm not sure that you can have both.   Or do you mean that in present times the restrictions are more severe?

Quote    Reply   

#98 [url]

Nov 27 15 8:57 AM

A competition very similar to CHAN is Superclásico de las Américas, where Argentina and Brazil are obliged to field only their local-based players. But I don't remember how those matches are classified by FIFA, whether "A" or not.






Fast Midfielder wrote:

So no Olympic Games matches anyhow? Imho this is not fair. For a long time most of the competitors fielded their strongest teams as well as (in most cases) their opponents.
But if i.e. Swaziland and Lesotho usually field domestic playrs a Swaziland vs Lesotho match should have the same status as i.e. Italy vs Spain at the 1928 Olympics.

I agree, this would be a pertinent way, but it's also very difficult and time-consuming, because you have first of all to know the players' eligibility and then analyse all the line-ups and verify case by case. The same applies to CHAN, where you have to check the respective squads to understand whether a team is restricted or not.


pieter wrote:
In 1990 Egypt fielded a B-team in Final tournament of the Africa Cup, because they wanted the A-team to prepare for the WC....I think we should consider those games as full internationals...  

True, and also at the 1996 Gold Cup Brazil employed an Under-23 team, in order to prepare the Olympic Games. The 1996 Gold Cup was surely a competition for "A" National teams, but Brazil preferred not to send their strongest side.

Quote    Reply   

#99 [url]

Nov 27 15 9:30 AM

At the December 1959 South American Championships Brazil selected only Pernambuco state based players. So this may explain the high number of players that made their full international debut in the first match against Paraguay.

242 - BRASIL 3x2 PARAGUAI (Brazil 3x2 Paraguay)
Data (Date): 05-12-1959
Tipo (Class): oficial (official) (196)
Competição (Competition): Campeonato Sul-Americano Extra (South American Extra Championship)
Local (Venue): Estádio Modelo Guayaquil
Cidade (City): Guayaquil (Equador/Ecuador)
Árbitro (Referee): Boanerges Ceballos (Equador/Ecuador)
Brasil (Brazil):
(entre colchetes o time a que o jogador pertence/between brackets the team to which the player belongs)

Waldemar [Náutico] (1)
Zequinha I [Náutico] (1)
Édson II [Sport Recife] - cap (14)
Givaldo [Náutico] (1)
Clóvis I [Santa Cruz] (1)
Biu [Santa Cruz] (1)
Traçaia [Sport Recife] (1)
Zé de Mello [Santa Cruz] (1)
(Tião-PE) [Santa Cruz] (1)
Paulo-PE [Náutico] (1)
Geraldo José [Náutico] (1)
Elias [Náutico] (1)

Técnico (Coach): Gentil Cardoso (1)

Paraguai (Paraguay):

Samuel Aguilar, Luis Torres, Carlos Monín, Salvador Villalba, Elígio Echagüe - Claudio Lezcano, Eligio Antonio Insfrán (Gerardo Núñez) - Genaro Benítez (Agustín Jara Saguier), Fabián Muñoz, Pedro Cabral, José del Rosario Parodi.

Técnico (Coach): Benjamín Laterza

Gols (Goals):

Paulo-PE (1), Paulo-PE (2), José del Rosario Parodi, Paulo-PE (3), José del Rosario Parodi


Last Edited By: Fast Midfielder Nov 27 15 9:41 AM. Edited 2 times.

Quote    Reply   

#100 [url]

Nov 27 15 6:25 PM

Now that's what I call a "selection of convenience"...

Quote    Reply   
Remove this ad
Add Reply

Quick Reply

bbcode help