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#41 [url]

Sep 25 14 1:35 AM

This match from RSSF:
??/??/1971 Bermuda [a] d 1-1 - Fr

KSAFA went on Bermuda tour in December. They played Bermuda (NT?) December 26th and (NT) January 1st.
This was a strictly amateur team.

KSAFA = Kingston & St. Andrew Football Association

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#45 [url]

Sep 25 14 1:57 PM

Yes that's the tour I meant. It was just a reference to http://www.rsssf.com/tablesj/jam-intres.html which I notice was updated this year and this match is probably from the tour. I could not find any other Bermuda matches that year..

While we're on the subject;
??/??/1987 Cayman Islands [a] w 3-1 - Fr [Tulloch x2>?]
Could not find anything about this match. Where does this originate from?

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#46 [url]

Sep 25 14 2:16 PM

TheRoonBa wrote:
Yes, Neil and I went through the Gleaner archives a few years ago and found many such matches. It's a pity there are no newspapers for the rest of the Caribbean with such good coverage. There are CANA reports in the Jamaica Gleaner covering other islands (for example, Grenada-St. Kitts matches in the 1930s), but frustratingly, CANA make it difficult (impossible) for an individual to access their archives. Many of the missing Caribbean results could be found easily with a searchable CANA archive.

Was this match part of a tour?  http://i62.tinypic.com/4j2wlg.png
RSSSF only has one match:
18/08/1938 St. Kitts & Nevis   [a] w 4-2


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#47 [url]

Sep 25 14 7:48 PM

SDb wrote:
Was this match part of a tour?  http://i62.tinypic.com/4j2wlg.png
RSSSF only has one match:
18/08/1938 St. Kitts & Nevis   [a] w 4-2

Yes, I found only those two football matches on the tour, which seems to have been a multi-sport tour of Grenada to St Kitts.
17/08/38 - St.Kitts 0-4 Grenada
18/08/38 - St.Kitts 2-4 Grenada
But this is based entirely on the reports in the Gleaner, so we can't be sure that (in particular) the St Kitts teams were both proper representative teams  (maybe one was A, one B or whatever).
It would not be a "St Kitts & Nevis" team anyway, I think.  Just St Kitts.

Indeed because it was a multi-sport tour, beginning (as ever) with cricket, it is unclear if these were really the strongest football teams of the two islands, or perhaps they were sporting teams chosen mainly for cricket purposes, which also played at other sports?  Table-tennis was also played on the tour, perhaps other sports too.  The report of the table tennis match  (see 22nd August edition of the Gleaner) says that the Grenada team left after that, and stopped at Nevis on August 20th.  Unclear if any games were played at Nevis, or it was just a quick stop.

On one of our previous trips to the library, I wanted to look up the details of this tour in a local newspaper but there was no paper from St Kitts nor Grenada for that month at the British Library, nor at the Library of Congress.   Infuriatingly the coverage stopped abruptly in July 1938.  I might look at those anyway to see if there are any clues in the late July issues.




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#48 [url]

Sep 25 14 7:50 PM

Regarding Caymans vs Jamaica in 1987:

The 1987 game you asked about is not a new arrival on any recent update of the RSSSF lists.  This match has been listed for a long time. 
It seems to derive from an article in the Gleaner, based on an interview with Tulloch in February 1988.

The article refers to such a match only tangentially, describing Michael Tulloch as "the man who last scored two goals for Jamaica against Cayman in 1987"
But that article does not give the score of the game.  I don't recall where the 3-1 score-line came from.  Perhaps ask Barrie, and be sure to let us know the response.

I have found no other evidence of such a game, but it is not impossible that Jamaica might have visited the Caymans (perhaps in May or June) and it was simply not mentioned in the Gleaner.  In other years their visits there were not well-covered in the Gleaner.
The Jamaican coach (McNab) resigned at the end of April 1987, and the corresponding report in the Gleaner summarized his results without mentioning any game vs Cayman.

But any game vs Caymans would have been a preparation friendly only so perhaps could have gone under the news radar.  Also in this period some Jamaican clubs visited the Cayman Islands, so perhaps more confusion with one of those visits.

Or the article is just wrong in some fundamental way, and the game was not in 1987, or not vs Cayman, or just nonsense, who knows.
Personally I don't know of any game in 1987 against any opponent in which Michael Tulloch scored twice, except for the match on 28-Jun-1987, Jamaica 2-4 "Jamaica-UK"  (a team of professionals of Jamaican descent playing in England).   Surely this can't be the source of the confusion.

Another vague possibility (just a suggestion) is that the article cited above mistook Cayman for Cuba, and perhaps Tulloch scored twice in the 2-0 win vs Cuba in 1987; I don't have the scorers of that match (29-Apr-1987 Jamaica 2-0 Cuba) and I could not find any match report in the Gleaner.
If somebody else has the scorers, please post them to rule out this possibility.


In general, there are a lot of Caribbean friendlies missing.  Many Caribbean friendlies from this era are simply not listed online (anywhere).
The Cayman Islands list on RSSSF is rather incomplete (or inaccurate), particularly with friendlies.

A few examples:

14-May-1993 Cayman Islands 2-2 Jamaica   (Hampstead Cup)
24-Feb-1993 Cayman Islands - Jamaica   [result not found]
17-May-1992 Cayman Islands 1-1 Jamaica (Hampstead Cup)
6-May-1990 Cayman Islands 1-2 Jamaica    (not 13-May)
5-Apr-1990 Cayman Islands 3-1 Trinidad & Tobago Olympic

Even some of their Caribbean Cup qualifiers are hard to find or screwed up in some way, e.g. the 1990 group involving Cayman Islands (though I have since found all those results), and also the qualifiers in 1992 involving Cayman are the wrong way round.  Cayman beat St Maarten and drew with Martinique.


Last Edited By: nfm24 Sep 25 14 10:41 PM. Edited 1 time.

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#49 [url]

Sep 28 14 11:41 PM

Are you just going to ask occasional questions and then go silent again for some weeks?
Is there any need for me to reply then?
Is it going to spark any actual collaboration or communication?

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#50 [url]

Sep 29 14 11:21 PM

Ok. I couldn't find any score for the Jamaica-Cuba match in 1987 either, but I'm not finished with Gleaner yet. Some editions are missing from online archives and could hold the key to the answer. Nor could I find anything for the 1990 Jamaica vs Caymans match either.
Anyway, as I have a full time job I can only do the updates occasionally when there's time.

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#51 [url]

Sep 30 14 5:37 AM

SDb wrote:
Some editions are missing from online archives and could hold the key to the answer.
Of course.  So let's go offline.  How far is it from you to Uppsala?

SDb wrote:

Nor could I find anything for the 1990 Jamaica vs Caymans match either.
What's to find?  I already gave you that one for free.  6-May-1990 Cayman Islands 1-2 Jamaica
Nice big report with pictures in "The Caymanian Compass"
Jamaica goals from Adonis Maxwell 28' and Montague Long 31'.   Cayman scored at 46'.
You can guess who the Cayman scorer was.

If you stubbornly insist on using only online resources, then look at editions 11-May-1990 and 22-May-1990 of the Daily Gleaner.  Both refer to the match.


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