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Mar 14 12 7:02 PM

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If I am right, FIFA decided in October 1932 players could change NT if they did not play for three years official A-international matches. Following a list of matches European teams fielded ineligible players, starting from October 1932. The country that fielded ineligible player(s) is named first. I don't include Irish players who did play for both the Republic Ireland and Northern Ireland. They could play for both countries for at least until 1946 as Northern Ireland was no FIFA member in the 1928-1946 era. I also do not include players who changed NT within three years of their last full A-international as a result of their country became annexed or the part of the country they are from became part of another country.

This is my provisional list. If you have comments, improvements and/or additions please react. In this topic only European NT's that fielded ineligible players.

27-11-1932 Italy 4-2 Hungary
Monti, Demaria

01-01-1933 Italy 3-1 Germany
Monti

12-02-1933 Italy 3-2 Belgium
Monti

02-04-1933 Italy 3-0 Switzerland
Monti

07-05-1933 Italy 2-0 Czechoslovakia
Monti

13-05-1933 Italy 1-1 England
Monti

22-10-1933 Italy 1-0 Hungary
Monti, Guarisi

29-10-1933 Romania 2-2 Switzerland
Baratki

03-12-1933 Italy 5-2 Switzerland
Monti, Guarisi

11-02-1934 Italy 2-4 Austria
Monti, Guarisi, Guaita

25-03-1934 Italy 4-0 Greece
Monti, Fantoni, Guarisi, Guaita

27-05-1934 Italy 7-1 USA
Monti, Guarisi

31-05-1934 Italy 1-1 Spain
Monti, Guaita

01-06-1934 Italy 1-0 Spain
Monti, Guaita, Demaria

03-06-1934 Italy 1-0 Austria
Monti, Guaita

10-06-1934 Italy 2-1 Czechoslovakia
Monti, Guaita

14-11-1934 Italy 2-3 England
Guaita

09-02-1934 Italy 4-2 Hungary
Guaita

17-02-1935 Italy 2-1 France
Guaita

24-03-1935 Italy 2-0 Austria
Guaita, Demaria

25-08-1935 Romania 2-4 Germany
Baratky

01-09-1935 Romania 1-7 Sweden
Baratky

27-10-1935 Italy 1-2 Czecholslovakia
Demaria

03-11-1935 Romania 4-1 Poland
Baratky

24-11-1935 Italy 2-2 Hungary
Demaria

05-04-1936 Italy 2-1 Switzerland
Demaria

05-12-1954 Italy 2-0 Argentina
Schiaffino
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#1 [url]

Mar 15 12 10:44 AM

What is not clear is: does this "three-year ban" make reference to the period between the last appearance for the previous National team and the first appearance for the new National team or to the residence in the new Country?
Several Italian sources I consulted talk about the residence in the new Country. Does anybody know something more?

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#2 [url]

Mar 17 12 8:29 AM

This wikipedia site http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fu%C3%9Fball-Weltmeisterschaft_1934 which is in German says: Nach dem damaligen FIFA-Reglement durften ehemals ausländische Spieler nur dann in der Nationalmannschaft spielen, wenn sie seit mindestens drei Jahren kein Länderspiel mehr für ein ausländisches Team bestritten hatten und zudem seit mindestens drei Jahren in ihrem neuen Heimatland gelebt haben. Please scroll down nearly to the end to read. Dutch wikiedia site about 1934 Wold Cup is reporting the same.

In English: According to FIFA rules at the time former foreign players were allowed to play for NT when they have played no international match for a foreign (national) team and lived at least three years in their new homeland.

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#3 [url]

Mar 18 12 9:32 AM

Ok, so I have probably found another case.

László Kubala played his last match for Czechoslovakia in 1947, but in 1948 (just one year later), he represented Hungary in three matches.
So, in theory, he couldn't play for Hungary.

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#4 [url]

Mar 18 12 3:39 PM

On this site http://www.magyarfutball.hu./hu/magyar-valogatott/1948 I found which three metches Kubala played for Hungary:
23-05-1948 v Albania 0-0
24-10-1948 v Romania 5-1
07-11-1948 v Bulgaria 0-1

Also found here http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/santamaria-intl.html José Emilio Santamaría played twice for Spain within the three years after his last match for Uruguay:
15-10-1958 v Northern Ireland 6-2
28-02-1959 v Italy 1-1

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#6 [url]

Mar 19 12 12:08 PM

as far as I am informed the rule must have been made in October 1932 and lasted at least untill 1960 when Humphrey Mijnals made his full A-international debut for Netherlands.

I don't know if some changes has been made in between or if some exceptions has been made. In Romania i.e. lived and still live a lot of ethnic Hungarians. For such kind of players there might have been made an exception, or for the Irish players who played for both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. I also know Switzerland was allowed to field foreigners only at the International Cup (Dr. Gerö Cup) tournament.

In 1962 the 3 years rule certainly has changed as after the 1962 World Cup players could appear for one country only.

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#7 [url]

Mar 19 12 3:53 PM

And what about this case?
The Uruguayan world champion Ernesto Mascheroni played two matches for Italy:

17/02/1935 Italy-France 2-1
24/03/1935 Austria-Italy 0-2

I don't know exactly his last appearance for Uruguay, but when he debuted for Italy he didn't have the "three-year residence", as he arrived in 1934. So, was he eligible or not?

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#8 [url]

Mar 19 12 5:16 PM

At the time according to the rules foreign players were allowed to play for NT when they have played no international match for a foreign (national) team and lived at least three years in their new homeland. So if Mascheroni arrived in Italy in 1934 he was not eligible to play for Italy in 1935.

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#9 [url]

Mar 19 12 5:48 PM

But perhaps Mascheroni had sufficiently Italian heritage to be classified as an eligible Italian in any case.
Do we know if this rule was only for "total foreigners" with no previous links to the new country prior to arrival?

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#10 [url]

Mar 19 12 6:55 PM

According to Dutch wikipedia site about the 1934 World Cup http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wereldkampioenschap_voetbal_1934 heritage should not matter. It says following:

De IFFHS (International Federation of Football History & Statistics) zou later concluderen, dat op grond van diverse bevindingen Italië gediskwalificeerd had moeten worden voor het toernooi:
Tijdens de kwalificatiewedstrijden (Italië moest zich ook voor zijn eigen kampioenschap kwalificeren) had Italië de eerste groepswedstrijd met 4-0 gewonnen van Griekenland. Omdat de Italiaanse bond, gesteund door het Italiaanse regime, niets zag in een vermoeiende reis naar Griekenland voor de returnwedstrijd, werd aan de Griekse bond gevraagd zich terug te trekken. Als tegenprestatie kocht Italië in Athene een gebouw dat door de noodlijdende Griekse voetbalbond als bondsgebouw gebruikt kon worden. Griekenland ging in op dit voorstel (het gebouw is nog steeds in bezit van de Griekse bond).
Volgens het FIFA-reglement mochten buitenlandse spelers alleen in het nationale team worden opgenomen, als zij op zijn minst drie jaar lang niet gespeeld hadden in een internationale wedstrijd van een ander thuisland en als zij minstens drie jaar in hun nieuwe vaderland woonden. De Italianen trokken zich niets aan van deze regel.
De Argentijn Monti had in 1931 nog gespeeld voor Argentinië
De Braziliaan Guarisi woonde nog geen drie jaar in Italië
Guaita speelde in 1933 nog voor Argentinië en zelfs nog voor een lokale Argentijnse ploeg.
Demaría was de vierde speler, die met Argentinië in 1931 nog tegen Paraguay had gespeeld.
Dit betekent dat Italië op vier fronten gediskwalificeerd had kunnen worden. Dit gold overigens ook voor Argentinië, die Urbieto Sosa had opgesteld, die in 1931 nog drie wedstrijden voor Paraguay had gespeeld.


brief translation: IFFHS concluded afterwars Italy could have been disqualified for following:
-> Italian FA asked Greek FA to withdraw for the return of the qualifying match. As a reward Italy bought a building in Athens Greek FA could use as its office. The building is still property of Greek FA.
-> the three years rule as mentioned earlier in this topic.
-> Monti played in 1931 for Argentina.
-> Guarisi did not live for three years in Italy.
-> Guaita played in 1933 for Argentina and a local Argentine team.
-> Demaría played in 1931 against Paraguay
-> Italy could have been disqualified for four reasons.
-> Argentina also could have been disqualified for fielding Urbieto Sosa who played three matches for Paraguay in 1931.

Monti, Guarisi, Guaiti and Demaría were all from Italian heritage.

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#11 [url]

Mar 19 12 9:07 PM

This case is really bizarre and controversial...
In December 1960, France wanted to call up Hector De Bourgoing for a match against Bulgaria. This player had previously represented Argentina and didn't have the three-year residence, because arrived in France only in August 1959. From the beginning, FIFA didn't allow Hector De Bourgoing to play for France, because he didn't have the three-year residence. But the French FA insisted on its purpose, saying that De Bourgoing was not a naturalised player, but a proper French guy, as he was born in Argentina from a French family. So FIFA changed its idea and, in 1961, drew the following conlclusion: «It's necessary that De Bourgoing respects a three-year pause, between the last appearance for Argentina and the first appearance for France».
His last appearance for Argentina was on 17/03/1957 (Argentina-Ecuador 3-0), so the French FA realized that he was perfectly eligible for the match against Bulgaria...!


I've translated this story from the biography of Hector De Bourgoing in French:

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hector_De_Bourgoing

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#12 [url]

Mar 20 12 7:41 PM

The famous champion Rinaldo Martino won the Southamerican Championship 1946 for Argentina and played one match for Italy in 1949. In theory he couldn't represent Italy, because he arrived here just in 1949, so he didn't have the three-year residence.

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#13 [url]

Mar 21 12 3:09 PM

Another player fielded by Italy who didn't have the three-year residence:

Ricardo Faccio. He had previously represented Uruguay. On 24-03-1935 he debuted for Italy, but he arrived here only in 1933.

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#14 [url]

Mar 21 12 5:34 PM

Luca wrote:
In December 1960, France wanted to call up Hector De Bourgoing for a match against Bulgaria. This player had previously represented Argentina and didn't have the three-year residence, because arrived in France only in August 1959. From the beginning, FIFA didn't allow Hector De Bourgoing to play for France, because he didn't have the three-year residence. But the French FA insisted on its purpose, saying that De Bourgoing was not a naturalised player, but a proper French guy, as he was born in Argentina from a French family. So FIFA changed its idea and, in 1961, drew the following conlclusion: «It's necessary that De Bourgoing respects a three-year pause, between the last appearance for Argentina and the first appearance for France».
His last appearance for Argentina was on 17/03/1957 (Argentina-Ecuador 3-0), so the French FA realized that he was perfectly eligible for the match against Bulgaria...!

This gives me the idea FIFA is very flexible with its own rules again and certainly did not take its rules seriously. Imho it looks like FIFA never checked the thre years residence rule. However, the other three years rule FIFA is very flexible. It is not a matter of what type of match these players played. Remember Baratky who played for Romania a World Cup qualifying match against Switzerland (2-2) on 29-10-1933. Prior to this match he played only friendlies for Hungary, even in 1933. Schiaffino, who made his debut for Italy five month after the 1954 World Cup, played for Uruguay at the 1954 World Cup.

Meanwhile I found something about Yiangos Simantiris http://wiki.phantis.com/index.php/Yiangos_Simantiris who played on 29-11-1959 a friendly match with Israel against Poland http://www.rsssf.com/tablesi/isra-intres50.html and on 03-05-1961 a World Cup qualifying match with Greece against Northern Ireland http://www.rsssf.com/tablesg/grk-intres60.html .

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#15 [url]

Mar 22 12 10:31 AM

Fast Midfielder wrote:
This gives me the idea FIFA is very flexible with its own rules again and certainly did not take its rules seriously. Imho it looks like FIFA never checked the thre years residence rule.


A famous Spanish proverb says: "Hecha la ley hecha la trampa" (in English: "Every law has a loophole", in Italian: "Fatta la legge trovato l'inganno", in French: "On trouve toujours le moyen de tourner la loi").

I mean: FIFA promulgated its laws, but several Countries used to swindle them. Do you remember when we were talking about the Olympic Games? FIFA rules stated that only the amateurs could take part in the Olympics between 1908 and 1980, but we've seen that several Countries fielded their professional players...

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#16 [url]

Mar 22 12 5:21 PM

Luca wrote:
A famous Spanish proverb says: "Hecha la ley hecha la trampa" (in English: "Every law has a loophole", in Italian: "Fatta la legge trovato l'inganno", in French: "On trouve toujours le moyen de tourner la loi").

I mean: FIFA promulgated its laws, but several Countries used to swindle them.

So this is why we cannot blame countries for fielding ineligible players even though this is cheating. We all know Italy fielded at the 1934 World Cup tournament ineligible players. They did this because FIFA did not take any action when Italy did the same before. This explains why Italy kept fielding ineligible players. I am very sure they would never have done so if FIFA immediately ordered them not to do so.

On 28-03-1921 a match Yugoslavia 3-2 Sweden was played with the home team fielding two foreigners. After the Swedes protested against this, FIFA decided to declare this match void. Hoewever, when Italy in particular, but also other countries, fielded ineligible players, most of he time FIFA did nothing. So FIFA gave these countries all opportunities to swindle. And let us be honest, if one makes an offence and does not get punished, he will do the same again. It's just a human reacton. So the question now is: who are the real swindlors? The countries who fielded ineligible players or FIFA that is punishing one for the offence but does not take action against the other for the same offence?

Luca wrote:
Do you remember when we were talking about the Olympic Games? FIFA rules stated that only the amateurs could take part in the Olympics between 1908 and 1980, but we've seen that several Countries fielded their professional players...

Well, the Olympic matter is very complicated and a complete different story. I remember in one of these Olympic topics that for the 1984 tournament FIFA changed the rules regarding eligible players even during the qualifying rounds..........

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#17 [url]

Mar 24 12 10:37 AM

Miguel Ángel Lauri played on 23-05-1937 as Michel Lauri for France against Ireland (0-2). Lauri played for Argentina in the 1928-1935 era and moved from Argentina to France in 1937. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_%C3%81ngel_Lauri
http://www.fff.fr/servfff/fiche_joueur_new/match.php?id_match=680

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#18 [url]

Mar 26 12 6:41 PM

However, I have to admit that also the rule from 1962 isn't clear. FIFA stated: “From now on, a player who has already represented a National team is no longer eligible for another National team”. But there are some examples showing that this rule wasn't applied.

Alberto Spencer played for Ecuador during the Southamerican Championship 1959 and later represented Uruguay on 06-05-1964 in a friendly against England.

Juan Joya played for Peru and later represented Uruguay on 03-01-1965 against East Germany.

And those matches are regarded as full official by FIFA.

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#19 [url]

Mar 31 12 6:52 PM

The legendary Josef Bican made his debut for Czechoslovakia on 07-08-1938 against Sweden. He played his last match for Austria on 08-11-1936 agsinst Switzerland http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/bican-intlg.html

Austria became part of Germany on 13-03-1938, so it did not exist as a country at the time he made his debut for Czechoslovakia. The question here is: when Austria lost its independence, were former Austrian internationals who played their last official international on 13-03-1935 or later allowed to play for Germany or also for other countries?

By coincidence I found Alekos Sofianidis made his international debut for Greece on 15-11-1958 against Yugoslavia. He did not played any full A-international matches before, yet in 1957 he played as Aleko Sofyanidis for Turkey B. The question here is, were players allowed to change NT at the time within three years as they did not play official A-internationals before?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alekos_Sofianidis
http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleko_Sofyanidis

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#20 [url]

Apr 1 12 9:06 AM

Fast Midfielder wrote:
The question here is: when Austria lost its independence, were former Austrian internationals who played their last official international on 13-03-1935 or later allowed to play for Germany or also for other countries?


Sorry, I don't understand very well your question. Could you please repeat it? You said “played their last official international on 13-03-1935 or later”, but maybe do you mean “on 13-03-1938”?


Fast Midfielder wrote:
The question here is, were players allowed to change NT at the time within three years as they did not play official A-internationals before?


With regard to this issue, I think they could. For example, Miguel Andreolo was born and grew up in Uruguay, but he never represented “La Celeste”. In 1935 he moved to Italy and debuted for the Italian National team in 1936. Miguel Ángel Montuori was born in Argentina and grew up in Chile, but he was never international. In 1955 he arrived in Italy and in 1956 he debuted for “Gli Azzurri”.

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