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#21 [url]

Apr 17 12 12:54 PM

According to FIFA Bulletin No 37/38

10-4-1962
Esch sur Alzette
Luxembourg B 0-7 (0-2) USSR B
Referee: Joseph Hannet (Belgium)

17-4-1962
Göteborg
Sweden B 2-1 (1-0) USSR B
Ref: Arnold Nilsen (Norway)

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#23 [url]

Apr 17 12 4:34 PM

Luxembourg played many matches against B-teams of other countries. As far as I know once Luxembourg played with its B-national team against another country's A-national team. Luxembourg B 2-7 Hungary A on 30-10-1946.

Many sites and books reports this match as a full international Luxembourg A 2-7 Hungary A, but the home team did not field its A-national team. On the very same day Luxembourg A played against Belgium B. More details you can read here http://www.eluxemburgensia.lu/R/4MF4RU9C4HM4BXR7QS4NUKMBCFTTUE7199GCPKUTEN7T97E45C-03075?func=file&file_name=browsedate&y=1946&m=10&d=31 If you see the October 1946 calendar click at 31, click at Escher Tageblatt, watch the sideline on left and click at Die Ungarn waren besser. The article reports Luxembourg played with its second team. On the same page there is the article Belgien B schlägt Luxemburg A (2:1 (0:1). The reports are in German language. One also can find the line ups of both matches.

It is also very interesting to read this match is labelled as Luxembourg v Budapest, in Hungary. But the article reports the Budapest team is de facto Hungarian NT. It is also mentioned Luxembourg played with its second set, the Hungarians with its first set.

Details about this match from Hungarian website you can read here http://www.magyarfutball.hu./hu/merkozes/1343

Actually on 30-10-1946 two matches were played involving Luxembourg sides:
-> Belgium B 2-1 Luxembourg A
-> Luxembourg B 2-7 Hungary A

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#25 [url]

Apr 17 12 6:12 PM

nfm24 wrote:
Fast Midfielder wrote:
Luxembourg labelled the 26-10-1960 match against Netherlands B (7-4 win for Netherlands B) as South Netherlands - Luxembourg. According to this article http://kranten.kb.nl/view/article/id/ddd%3A010678613%3Ampeg21%3Ap007%3Aa0155


Can you please write the goal-scorers ? Thanks

32. Schmit 0-1, (before 37). Schouten 1-1, Schouten 2-1, Koopal 3-1, 45. Cirelli 3-2, Schmit 3-3, Letsch 3-4, Groot 4-4, unknown 5-4, unkown 6-4, Koopal 7-4.

pieter wrote:
I find nothing on the Lux B-Hungary B match in the book of the FLF (1908-1983)...it gives a detailed list of Lux B and Lux A matches...

If you mean the 30-10-1946 match, it was Luxembourg B – Hungary A

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#27 [url]

Apr 17 12 6:46 PM

trekky76 wrote:
I guess the "A" team is wherever the head coach would go..

Sounds logical but this is not always the case. Sweden i.e. played on 28-09-1930 three matches: 2-2 in Liege against Belgium, 4-4 in Helsinki against Finland and 0-3 in Stockholm against Poland. All matches are regarded as official A-matches by Sweden and all its opponents. So, on 28-09-1930 Sweden had three different A-teams, but the head coach could visit only one of these matches.

Especially in the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s various nations played two official A-internationals on the very same day, so it was impossible the head coach visited both matches. The 1935-1939 friendly matches Germany played against Luxembourg are one of the examples. Germany fielded its de facto B-team, but regards these matches as played by their A-team and these matches are labelled as Luxembourg - Germany.

pieter wrote:
Lux B did not play Hungary (A or B) according the book.....

In Escher Tageblatt from Luxembourg of 31-10-1946 http://www.eluxemburgensia.lu/R/4MF4RU9C4HM4BXR7QS4NUKMBCFTTUE7199GCPKUTEN7T97E45C-03075?func=file&file_name=browsedate&y=1946&m=10&d=31 you can read this match is labelled as Luxembourg v Budapest.

According to this very well documented site about Hungarian NT http://www.magyarfutball.hu./hu/merkozes/1343 Hungary fielded its A-national team.

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#28 [url]

Apr 17 12 6:51 PM

Fast Midfielder wrote:
nfm24 wrote:
Fast Midfielder wrote:
Luxembourg labelled the 26-10-1960 match against Netherlands B (7-4 win for Netherlands B) as South Netherlands - Luxembourg. According to this article http://kranten.kb.nl/view/article/id/ddd%3A010678613%3Ampeg21%3Ap007%3Aa0155


Can you please write the goal-scorers ? Thanks

32. Schmit 0-1, (before 37). Schouten 1-1, Schouten 2-1, Koopal 3-1, 45. Cirelli 3-2, Schmit 3-3, Letsch 3-4, Groot 4-4, unknown 5-4, unkown 6-4, Koopal 7-4.


From Utrechts Nieuwsblad, 27 October 1960 (page 17):

Konter 0-1 (after more than 30'), Schouten (2x) and Koopal 1-1, 2-1, 3-1, Cirelli 3-2 (some mins. before HT) (13 mins between 0-1 and 3-2); Schmit 3-3 (just after HT), Letsch 3-4 (56'), Groot 4-4 (from kick-off), Groot 5-4 (60'), Koopal 6-4, Koopal 7-4 (82').

Netherlands B: Swinkels; Heerschop, Zaal; Notermans, Kraay, De Koning; Kerkhoffs, Schouten, (Cees) Groot, Fransen, Koopal.
Luxemburg: Schmitt (Stendebach); Brenner, Hoffmann, Jann, Brosius, Konter; Schmit, Cirelli, Martl, May, Letsch.

Note that that the two sources do not agree about the 0-1!

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#29 [url]

Apr 18 12 4:20 PM

pieter wrote:
it is not very strange that Luxemburg played many B-teams: those teams gave them the chance to get a result....they were agood sparring partner for the Belgian B-team. The B-teams were important because in A-matches substistutions were not allowed in the same amount as today. I think there are no B-teams anymore in international football, but several youth teams....

Reading your comment I suddenly realize why there are hardly B-teams anymore. Of course, nowadays there are many substitutions in friendly A-internationals, so many players can be tested and earn full caps now. These kind of players were used to play in B-internationals. Watching the line ups of the various B-teams in the - rougly said - 1920-1970 period these teams often contained at least three regular A-national team players, sometimes even much more (as you can read somewhere else at this forum on the Yugoslavia case in the 1927-1928 season).

pieter wrote:
In the IFFHS book there is even a picture of the Belgian team .................... there are also a lot of unofficial belgian matches in this book, if someone is interested....

This gives me the impression it must me more then the 7 matches listed in the “Onze Rode Duivels” book of the 1904-1940 era.

nfm24 wrote:
Fast Midfielder wrote:
08-12-1929 Netherlands 1-0 Belgium
14-09-1930 Belgium 4-1 Netherlands

Both these games were listed as "International Matches" in the FIFA Bulletins at the time.

And how about the 14-02-1932 Netherlands 2-3 Belgium match? This one was played to raise money for nearly bankrupt FIFA.

Sensini wrote:
Note that that the two sources do not agree about the 0-1!

I am not surprised. In this topic http://roonba.20.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=945 you can read about the 25-06-1933 unofficial Netherlands 6-5 Hungary match Dutch and Hungarian sources don't agree at all about the Hungarian goalscorers.

Dutch source reports: Sarosi 0-1, 35. Van Run 1-1 (penalty), 44. Vente 2-1, Vente 3-1, 52. Vente 4-1, 66. Toldi 4-2, Mulders 5-2, 76. Toldi 5-3, Van Male or Weber (own goal) or Hungarian player 5-4, Toldi 5-5, 85. Wels 6-5.

Hungarian source reports http://www.magyarfutball.hu/hu/merkozes/3097

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#30 [url]

Apr 18 12 5:41 PM

nfm24 wrote:
Fast Midfielder wrote:
08-12-1929 Netherlands 1-0 Belgium
14-09-1930 Belgium 4-1 Netherlands

Both these games were listed as "International Matches" in the FIFA Bulletins at the time.

And how about the 14-02-1932 Netherlands 2-3 Belgium match? This one was played to raise money for nearly bankrupt FIFA.[/quote]

I don't know. I don't have the edition which covers January - June 1932.

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#31 [url]

Apr 19 12 9:30 PM

pieter wrote:
the list of LFL are in the two excellent books they published......Books are more reliable then the internet....

Yes they are, but sometimes they are not so up to date as the internet is. It happened a national FA regard matches official afterwards or deleted some matches afterwards. It even happened matches have been relabelled afterwards. That might also be a reason sometimes teams are labelled different. Earlier this topic we could read according to FLF the 26-10-1960 match was South Netherlands - Luxembourg, but accordng to the Dutch it was Netherlands B - Luxembourg.

According to LFL the 07-03-1962 match was Netherlands B - Luxembourg A and so it is according to this Dutch Wikipedia site http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_van_voetbalinterlands_Nederlands_B-voetbalelftal However, acording to Dutch newspaper Friese Koerier the Dutch team was Jong Oranje (and this match should be deleted from the list). http://kranten.kb.nl/view/article/id/ddd%3A010688856%3Ampeg21%3Ap007%3Aa0130

The 29-09-1965 Netherlands B - Luxembourg A match was a preparation match for Dutch A-national team that played a crucial World Cup qualifying match against Switzerland as various A-national team players were used. It was certainly not Netherlands A that played, but the Dutch team can be seen as mix between A and B-team. This match is reported as one of the three preparation matches (Standard Liege (15-09-1965), Luxembourg (29-09-1965) and Sheffield Wednesday (06-10-1965)) of Dutch NT for the WC qualifying match against Switzerland. It is almost the same situation as the 27-03-1948 match between both sides. For better quality in order to read the article please press pdf button.
http://kranten.kb.nl/view/article/id/ddd%3A010526430%3Ampeg21%3Ap007%3Aa0215

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#32 [url]

Apr 21 12 7:07 AM

On 11-04-1937 a match Luxembourg 1-5 Belgium B was played. The Belgian side was labelled B-team but appeared rather to be an A-team as seven of them (their names are in bold) had already played official A-internationals for Belgium and five of them were even recent call ups: Badjou; Petit, Smellinckx, Van Ingelhem; Meuldermans, Claessens, Mens, Lamoot , Nelis, Van Orshagen, Franckx . Nelis was part of the 1938 Belgium World Cup squad and made his debut in 1940 with a fine 7-1 win over the Netherlands (Belgiums biggest win so far against the Dutch) and opened the score. Petit made his full international debut in May 1938.

On 24-04-1938 a match Belgium B 9-3 Luxembourg was played. The Belgian side was labelled B-team but appeared rather to be an A-team as seven of them (their names are in bold) had already played official A-internationals for Belgium and six of them were even recent call ups: Wohner; Heyman, Smellinckx; Dalem, Gommers, P. Henry; Vlaminck, Lamoot (Ceuleers), Capelle, Nelis, Saeys. The players in bold were A-national team players already. Smellinckx, Dalem and Capelle were regulars, they were even key players. The others played for Belgium now and then. Nelis was part of the 1938 Belgium World Cup squad and made his debut in 1940 with a fine 7-1 win over the Netherlands (Belgiums biggest win so far against the Dutch) and opened the score.
http://roonba.20.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?p=19176#19176

On 30-04-1939 a match Belgium B 3-0 Luxembourg was played. The Belgian side was labelled B-team but appeared rather to be an A-team as seven of them (their names are in bold) had already played official A-internationals for Belgium and at least five of them were even recent call ups. As Escher Tageblatt sometimes spelled the Belgian it is not clear if it is Stanley Vaneneynde who played on 13-03-1938 the last of his 26 A-internationals in a World Cup qualifying match against Luxembourg or François Van den Eynden who played four A-international matches in the 1932-1934 era: De Raedt; Jonckers, Homblet; Vandekerckhove, Gommers, Henriet; Vanden Wouwer, Ceuleers, Isemborghs, Lamoot, Vandeneynde. Vandekerkhove and Henriet made their full international debut on 17-03-1940 with a fine 7-1 win over the Netherlands.
http://www.eluxemburgensia.lu/webclient/DeliveryManager?application=DIRECTLINK&custom_att_2=simple_viewer&pid=678896&search_terms=#panel:pp|issue:678896|page:8



Very interesting is also the 10-03-1940 Luxembourg 3-4 Belgium B line up: Mertens; Petit, Seys; Vercammen, Gommers, Henriet; Vanden Wouwver, Vossure, Van Craen, Nelis, Eeckeman.
The players in bold had already played official A-international matches. The ones in italic all made their full international debut one week later when Belgium outclassed Netherlands with a 7-1 win. Vercammen was also close to A-national team. He made his full international debut on 24-12-1944 against France and became a regular A-national team player. Due to WW2 a very talented Belgium side did not play any full internationals from 21-04-1940 to 24-12-1944.

Last Edited By: Fast Midfielder Nov 5 15 8:43 AM. Edited 2 times.

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#33 [url]

Apr 21 12 10:28 AM

Fast Midfielder wrote:
trekky76 wrote:
I guess the "A" team is wherever the head coach would go..

Sounds logical but this is not always the case. Sweden i.e. played on 28-09-1930 three matches: 2-2 in Liege against Belgium, 4-4 in Helsinki against Finland and 0-3 in Stockholm against Poland. All matches are regarded as official A-matches by Sweden and all its opponents. So, on 28-09-1930 Sweden had three different A-teams, but the head coach could visit only one of these matches.



Sweden did not have a head coach at that time. Until 1960 a selection committee was in charge of the team. They did not go on tours with the team but usually hired a trainer to do so. I often find the head of the committee listed as a coach in various media but it is not correct to lable them as head coaches.

www.soccer-db.info

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#34 [url]

Apr 22 12 6:26 PM

trekky76 wrote:
Sweden did not have a head coach at that time. Until 1960 a selection committee was in charge of the team. They did not go on tours with the team but usually hired a trainer to do so. I often find the head of the committee listed as a coach in various media but it is not correct to lable them as head coaches.


Despite Dutch NT officially has a headcoach since 1908 (Edgar Chadwick) it was until 1957 a selection committee that decided which players would represent the Netherlands. Elek Schwartz became the first Dutch NT-manager who was allowed to select the players he wanted.

In the 1935-1939 period Germany played five friendlies against Luxembourg with a B-team, but DFB regard also these matches as official A-international matches. However, on the same day Germany played against Luxembourg in that period a stronger German NT also played an A-international against more serious opposition. In 1935 Otto Nerz was German NT headcoach, during the 1936-1939 friendly matches Germany played Sepp Herberger was the head coach. Hereby match reports by Escher Tageblatt from Luxembourg which reports from matches against Germany in 1935, 1936 and 1939 and against Germany B in 1937 and 1938.
http://www.eluxemburgensia.lu/BnlViewer/view/index.html?lang=fr#issue:627823 read page 2
http://www.eluxemburgensia.lu/BnlViewer/view/index.html?lang=fr#issue:642431 read page 8
http://www.eluxemburgensia.lu/BnlViewer/view/index.html?lang=fr#issue:649443 read page 8
http://www.eluxemburgensia.lu/BnlViewer/view/index.html?lang=fr#issue:662861 read page 8
http://www.eluxemburgensia.lu/BnlViewer/view/index.html?lang=fr#issue:676951 read page 7

Both on 12-05-1935 and 06-10-1935 Austria played two international matches on the same day. On both occasions the strongest Austrian side faced Hungary, the other one faced Poland. Austrian FA regard both matches as official A-international. At the time Hugo Meisl was Austrian NT head coach.
Sport Tagblatt reports the first match as Austria - Poland and the second match as Poland - Austria B. However, both matches are regarded official A-international by Austrian FA.
http://anno.onb.ac.at/pdfs/ONB_nrU7.pdf
http://anno.onb.ac.at/pdfs/ONB_rJfW.pdf

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#35 [url]

Apr 26 12 7:54 PM

On this website http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/konter-intl.html one can read following: Many of these matches (against "B", Amateur or Olympic teams) were considered as full international matches, but the rule was changed in 1982. The above list is published to render homage to a great footballer with inclusion of all the matches he played for Luxembourg that are an indelible part of the history of the sport.

Does anyone know which rule was changed in 1982?

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#36 [url]

Apr 27 12 8:43 AM

Fast Midfielder wrote:
On this website http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/konter-intl.html one can read following: Many of these matches (against "B", Amateur or Olympic teams) were considered as full international matches.


I think it is fair to include the B matches here. They are (or, at least, they were at the time) official for Luxembourg, and it is consistent with the RSSSF player caps data for most other players and countries. The RSSSF criteria for caps is based (usually) on national FAs official lists, where available, and not only on FIFA's criteria (which have changed many times, and are not consistently applied).

Whether we ourselves agree personally with the Luxembourg list, is another matter. Other readers may have more strict views, e.g. that both teams in a match should be full national teams.

As a researcher, I am in favour of the RSSSF policy of using the national lists where available. Where unavailable, my own policy is to be as inclusive as possible, but provide footnotes or clear labels to indicate where there is any potential deviation from a pure/strict A-vs-A match. This way, the casual reader can still make his own decision about which matches to discount.

So you can think of Konter's 77 games as a maximum, and then seek to decrease the number by imposing your own personal restrictions on the data.

I consider Roberto Mamrud's work on caps to be among the best published, particulary because, unlike most, he goes beyond his own country (and continent) to work on the "neglected" countries

Does anyone know which rule was changed in 1982?


I guess we need to know what precisely Roberto meant (I will ask him now), but I would assume he means the former FIFA rule which stated that an international A match needed only the home team to field its A team. I thought that rule was changed around 1988-1990 period. If someone has the old editions of the FIFA statutes, that would clear it up.

The Malta FA website used to state this rule explicitly, to justify why some of Malta's early matches against non-A teams are listed as full internationals. Their new website doesn't keep the same statement, but here is a copy:


"Since 1953, FIFA defined an International 'A' Match as follows: An International Football Match A officially recognised by the Federation and subject to the provisions of Art.37 of the Statute shall be a match arranged between two National Associations who are members of the Federations and in which the home country fields its national representative team (Art.3 of the FIFA Regulations, 'Definition of Matches').

Hence, Malta's home matches vs Denmark XI (195, vs Italy 'C' (1961), vs Italy U21 (1984), vs England 'B' (1987) and others are recognised by FIFA as International 'A' Matches.

At the FIFA Congress held on June 6th, 1990, the definition was amended to read as follows: An International 'A' match shall be a match that has been arranged between two National Associations affiliated to the Federation and for which both Associations field their first national representative team.

Consequently, Malta's match vs Norway's Olympic Team in the Rothmans Tournament (1992) is not recognised as an International 'A' match in terms of the latest FIFA regulations."


It is unclear if FIFA intended the new rule to apply retrospectively to old matches, or only to apply to future matches. We have read from the IFFHS pompous statements about nobody having the right to delete a match (even though both IFFHS and FIFA do indeed delete matches), so as usual the situation is untidy.

For Konter's case, all the matches played at home vs foreign B teams would be counted as A internationals for FIFA (using the old rule, i.e. the rule in force at the time of the match), but all the matches played away against the same B teams would not.
Note that Konter's list also includes Olympic matches in 1959-60, which would not be considered A by FIFA (cf 1999 : ruling on deletion of Olympic matches since 1956).

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#37 [url]

Apr 27 12 8:57 AM

nfm24 wrote:
For Konter's case, all the matches played at home vs foreign B teams would be counted as A internationals for FIFA (using the old rule, i.e. the rule in force at the time of the match), but all the matches played away against the same B teams would not.

Because several countries listed also some of their matches played with their (virtual) B-teams as official A and many B-teams fielded even more A-international players than several A-teams personally I have no objections to regard these matches as official A. Not only the matches played at home by the country that fielded its A-team, also the matches played away by the country that fielded its A-team. Besides B-teams also are non restrictive teams.

Another reason is somewhere I read Argentina FA listed 4 matches Argentina played against Paraguay in 1919 with their B-team as official A about 75 years later on Paraguay's request. This give me the idea if Luxembourg FA will ask i.e. Belgium FA to regard the matches Belgium B played against Luxembourg to regard as official A and the Belgians will do so, these matches will be official A for both Luxembourg and Belgium.

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#38 [url]

Apr 27 12 10:03 AM

Fast Midfielder wrote:
Another reason is somewhere I read Argentina FA listed 4 matches Argentina played against Paraguay in 1919 with their B-team as official A about 75 years later on Paraguay's request. This give me the idea if Luxembourg FA will ask i.e. Belgium FA to regard the matches Belgium B played against Luxembourg to regard as official A and the Belgians will do so, these matches will be official A for both Luxembourg and Belgium.


It shouldn't matter anyhow. Paraguay is welcome to keep its own list of its official matches, without having to ask Argentina for an "upgrade". The Paraguay and Argentina lists don't have to agree with either each other, or with FIFA.
Just the same as Luxembourg keeps its official list including all the B matches, so its list disagrees with FIFA and with the lists of Belgium, Netherlands, etc.

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#39 [url]

Apr 28 12 6:48 AM

nfm24 wrote:
It shouldn't matter anyhow. Paraguay is welcome to keep its own list of its official matches, without having to ask Argentina for an "upgrade". The Paraguay and Argentina lists don't have to agree with either each other, or with FIFA.
Just the same as Luxembourg keeps its official list including all the B matches, so its list disagrees with FIFA and with the lists of Belgium, Netherlands, etc.

Wasn't it FIFA that decided in 1906 the individual countries have to decide themselves which matches they want to list official or not? However, the question is why Paraguay asked Argentina for an "upgrade"? Probably they wanted there are no discrepancies between both countries in regarding these matches official A, so these matches can be counted for both from a (what I call) neutral point of view as official A.

As both A- and B-teams are not restrictive and there often has been a very thin line between what is an A-team or B-team, I have no objections to count such matches as official A from a neutral point of view. Which is my personal opinion. Also because many matches which teams that are rather B-teams that A-teams are listed official A by both sides.

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#40 [url]

Apr 28 12 9:48 AM

Fast Midfielder wrote:
However, the question is why Paraguay asked Argentina for an "upgrade"? Probably they wanted there are no discrepancies between both countries in regarding these matches official A, so these matches can be counted for both from a (what I call) neutral point of view as official A.


I'm going to ask the Paraguayan FA the reason of this petition. Maybe they know something more than us. It will be hard to get a reply, however I can attempt...

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