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#41 [url]

Apr 29 12 2:26 PM

nfm24 wrote:
"Since 1953, FIFA defined an International 'A' Match as follows: An International Football Match A officially recognised by the Federation and subject to the provisions of Art.37 of the Statute shall be a match arranged between two National Associations who are members of the Federations and in which the home country fields its national representative team (Art.3 of the FIFA Regulations, 'Definition of Matches').

Isn't this a strange rule? This implies if Luxembourg play i.e. at home against Belgium B the match is official A, but the return is not as Belgium (B) is the home country.

nfm24 wrote:
"Hence, Malta's home matches vs Denmark XI (1958, vs Italy 'C' (1961), vs Italy U21 (1984), vs England 'B' (1987) and others are recognised by FIFA as International 'A' Matches.

What if the Denmark XI is a team from Denmark that field i.e. a team of players from Norwegians living in Denmark?

Last Edited By: Fast Midfielder Jan 27 13 2:16 PM. Edited 1 time.

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#42 [url]

Apr 29 12 2:33 PM

Yes it is a strange rule, which may explain why it is not well known and why modern FIFA data records tend not to follow it, even for historical matches.

Fast Midfielder wrote:
What if the Denmark XI is a team from Denmark that field i.e. a team of players from Norwegians living in Denmark?


The rule mentioned above just requires that the Denmark team should be picked by the DBU. There were also other rules in the statutes about eligibility to play for a team, perhaps not so strict in earlier years. As we know, players could switch country based on current residence (e.g. Puskas playing for Spain).

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#43 [url]

May 11 12 4:45 AM

This is a full A-international Luxembourg was involved their opponents fielded a team with less A-international players than many so called B-teams: 31-03-1940 Netherlands 4-5 Luxembourg. Earlier this topic one could read Belgium B fielded on some occasions (11-04-1937, 24-04-1938 and 30-04-1939) even more players who already have played A-international matches before the kick off. The Belgian B-team that played Luxembourg on 10-03-1940 fielded only four players that have won A-caps before the kick-off, however one week later eight of these players have played full A-internationals for Belgium.

Here a picture of one of Luxembourg's five goals:
3c109fe7-9989-494f-acc6-258837d523de.jpg


Netherlands line up

13. Van Male (26-02-1939 against Hungary)
0. Slot
0. Choufour
26. Bas Paauwe (17-03-1940 against Belgium)
0. Poulus
1. De Vroet (23-10-1938 against Denmark)
5. Dräger (17-03-1940 against Belgium)
7. Drok (03-05-1936 against Belgium)
0. Vroomen
0. Lenstra
2. Bergman (28-11-1937 against Luxembourg)

Those who have already played official A-internationals are in bold. The numbers before the name correspond with the number of official A-internationals they played before the match according to KNVB records. In brackets behind their names the last date they played for Netherlands.

The Dutch team was changed on nine positions with their previous match, on 17-03-1940 against Belgium which they lost 7-1. The intention was Caldenhove (25 caps) should also have played against Luxembourg, but seven days before the match he got a serious knee injury. Slot, Choufour, Poulus and Vroomen never played an A-international for Netherlands again. The situation in 1940 was different as in other years indeed as Netherlands played one more international before the country was attacked by the Nazi's on 10-05-1940 and became occupied for five years. When Dutch NT made its come back in 1946, Slot (born on 14-05-1909) was almost 37, so WW2 put an end on his international career. According to their age Choufour (06-05-1916), Poulus (29-01-1916) and Vroomen (24-11-1918) could have played for Netherlands after te War. Lenstra (27-11-1920) eventually played 47 official A for Netherlands (the last one in 1959!) and became one of the most legendary players of his country http://roonba.20.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=1916

Last Edited By: Fast Midfielder Oct 30 15 1:59 PM. Edited 2 times.

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#44 [url]

May 11 12 1:47 PM

nfm24 wrote:


I think it is fair to include the B matches here. They are (or, at least, they were at the time) official for Luxembourg, and it is consistent with the RSSSF player caps data for most other players and countries. The RSSSF criteria for caps is based (usually) on national FAs official lists, where available, and not only on FIFA's criteria (which have changed many times, and are not consistently applied).

As a researcher, I am in favour of the RSSSF policy of using the national lists where available. Where unavailable, my own policy is to be as inclusive as possible, but provide footnotes or clear labels to indicate where there is any potential deviation from a pure/strict A-vs-A match. This way, the casual reader can still make his own decision about which matches to discount.


I follow the same practice. The best solution is to have a separate list of "A" matches and full internationals. FIFA will only keep list of full internationals but individual football federations may add additional "A" matches which aren't "A" for their opponents. The purpose of course is to acknowledge the fact they've been played and give caps to players who deserve it.

www.soccer-db.info

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#45 [url]

May 11 12 3:01 PM

trekky76 wrote:
The best solution is to have a separate list of "A" matches and full internationals.

Just to understand you as good as possible and to avoid having misunderstandings I would like to know what is for you the difference between A" matches and full internationals?

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#46 [url]

May 11 12 3:24 PM

Fast Midfielder wrote:
trekky76 wrote:
The best solution is to have a separate list of "A" matches and full internationals.

Just to understand you as good as possible and to avoid having misunderstandings I would like to know what is for you the difference between A" matches and full internationals?


"A" match: match of "A" vs "A" and "A" vs "B" etcetera
Full international: "A" vs "A" only and in theory, listed by FIFA.

www.soccer-db.info

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#47 [url]

May 11 12 5:50 PM

An update : Roberto Mamrud hasn't yet replied. Maybe he is busy with CONMEBOL stuff. I will write here if / when he does reply.


Terms such as "full international", "A match", and "official match" are pretty vague anyway. Everyone who has spent some time thinking about this topic will have his own views on criteria.

Ultimately there are only three types of list which matter, each having different criteria and usually they don't agree with each other (nor should they have to do so). They each have their positives and negatives of course.

1. National FA's list - the most definitive and authoritative, in theory, but:
(i) many countries don't maintain or publish a list
(ii) different criteria for different countries
(iii) criteria are often "bent" to permit inclusion or exclusion of particular games

2. FIFA's list - carries authority particularly for countries without their own list, but
(i) full of historical problems and contradictions
(ii) criteria change often, with inconsistent application
(iii) only applies to countries which are FIFA members
(iv) FIFA are known to be relying heavily on "amateurs" to provide data.

3. "Common Sense" list - in principle the most correct and unbiased list based on all available facts, but
(i) carries no authority
(ii) based only on available data
(iii) "common sense" can still mean different things to different people
(iv) there is no such list, only attempts

Anyway this topic is well covered elsewhere.

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#48 [url]

May 11 12 7:27 PM

trekky76 wrote:
"A" match: match of "A" vs "A" and "A" vs "B" etcetera
Full international: "A" vs "A" only and in theory, listed by FIFA.

Got your point of view. I asked you this because for me A-match and Full international has the same meaning, but this is personal. I regard matches as such according to what I call from neutral point of view.

nfm24 wrote:
Terms such as "full international", "A match", and "official match" are pretty vague anyway. Everyone who has spent some time thinking about this topic will have his own views on criteria.

Probably because FIFA have never defined this and decided in 1906 the individual FA should decided by themselves which matches to regard official A. As people can have and do have different opions about this matter it is hard to define.

nfm24 wrote:
(i) many countries don't maintain or publish a list

Or they change their list now and then by deleting and adding matches.

nfm24 wrote:
(ii) different criteria for different countries

Not only that. Sometimes a country changes its criteria. Going back to this topic, German FA regard the matches Germany played in the 1935-1939 era with their B-team against Luxembourg as official A-international matches. The ones played with their B-team against Luxembourg in the 1958-1981 era are regarded as official B-international matches by German FA.

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#49 [url]

May 11 12 8:08 PM

Here an article about Leon Mart who is still Luxembourg NT leading goalscorer with 16 goals in 24 matches.
http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/mart-intlg.html

He also played in the match Luxembourg 5-5 Belgium B on 16-02-1936 in which he scored three goals. Scorers: 10. Versijp 0-1, 13. Henry 0-2, 16. Mart 1-2, 32. Mart 2-2, 39. Bernard 3-2, 59. Geib 4-2, 62. Mart 5-2, 65. Versijp 5-3, 71. Versijp 5-4, 82. Lambrechts 5-5.

According to Escher Tageblatt from he next day reports about an unofficial match (offiziöse).
http://www.eluxemburgensia.lu/webclient/DeliveryManager?application=DIRECTLINK&custom_att_2=simple_viewer&pid=634120&search_terms=#panel:pa|issue:634120|articleTL72

Luxembourg: Hoscheidt; Rouster, Majerus; Theis, Kieffer, Fischer; Stammet, Bernard, Mart, Geib, Speicher.
Belgium B: Vandeweyer; Pappaert, Bellefroid; Peeraer, Mortelmans, Henry; De Vries, Lambrechts, Versijp, Gets, Putmans. Belgium A played on the same day against Poland and lost 0-2 in Brussels. Nevertheless, six of the players who appeared for Belgium B already played official A-international matches before. Their names are in bold.

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#50 [url]

May 22 12 4:48 PM

According to LFL the 07-03-1962 match was Netherlands B - Luxembourg A and so it is according to this Dutch Wikipedia site http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_van_voetbalinterlands_Nederlands_B-voetbalelftal However, acording to Dutch newspaper Friese Koerier the Dutch team was Jong Oranje (and this match should be deleted from the list). http://kranten.kb.nl/view/article/id/ddd%3A010688856%3Ampeg21%3Ap007%3Aa0130

I asked KNVB about the labelling of this match and they answered me the Dutch team is "Jong Oranje". They sent me in pdf a copy of the match report which is published in "De Sportkroniek" (which is something as KNVB newspaper) of 12-03-1962. However somewhere at the beginning of the article is written "Jong Oranje" is a more attractive name as "Netherlands B". That might be the reason FLF thought the Dutch were fielding a B-team. The U-23 (or B-team) is also named the "Porch of Dutch A-national team". The names of the Dutch players mentioned in the article are youth players.

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#51 [url]

May 22 12 5:20 PM

Fast Midfielder wrote:
According to LFL the 07-03-1962 match was Netherlands B - Luxembourg A and so it is according to this Dutch Wikipedia site http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_van_voetbalinterlands_Nederlands_B-voetbalelftal However, acording to Dutch newspaper Friese Koerier the Dutch team was Jong Oranje (and this match should be deleted from the list). http://kranten.kb.nl/view/article/id/ddd%3A010688856%3Ampeg21%3Ap007%3Aa0130

I deleted this match from the Dutch Wikipedia site.

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#52 [url]

May 22 12 6:33 PM

Meanwhile I contacted LFL about the 26-10-1960 Netherlands B - Luxembourg match they labelled as South Netherlands - Luxembourg and I am waiting for their reply.

I have analyzed several B-teams line ups and here a summary of what I have found.

Austria: Most of the B-teams that played against other countries A-teams contained at least six players who have played already A-international matches. Even though played on the same day Austrian A-national team came in action the teams fielded experienced players. The team that played Luxembourg on 20-03-1949 fielded seven players who had played already A-international matches before.

Most experienced team however, was the Austrian B-side that played against Netherlands on 22-05-1952. Six of the players already appeared in A-international matches before. Goalkeeper Zeman already played 31 full internationals. Kowanz (16) and Wagner (19) were the other experienced players. Even though Austria did not played on the same day the selection was a complete different one as Austrian A- team that played England three days later.

Belgium: In the 1928-34 era mostly very unexperienced teams with only three players who have played full A-internationals before. But always fielding also players who would win A-caps later, mostly within a year and sometimes also in the next A-international match Belgium will play. Notably the most experienced of these sites, that played on 04-11-1928 against Luxembourg obtained the worst result: 1-1.

During the preparation for 1934 World Cup a Belgian B-side fielded nine players who have already won full caps when they beat Luxembourg 4-1 on 10-05-1934. Uncapped player De Vries, however, will make his full international debut seventeen days later in Belgium’s next match. From that moment on until WW 2 Belgium B-teams will field most of the times at least six players who have already played official A-international matches.

In the first years after WW 2 Belgian B-teams are less experienced, but most of the times at least four players had already played A-internationals. It is remarkable in the 1945-48 era notably the two most experienced teams are not able to beat Luxembourg. On 04-05-1947 a Belgium B-side fielding five A-international players drew 3-3 with Luxembourg. When Belgium B fielded six A-international players on 22-02-1948 they even lost 2-0 against Luxembourg.

Czechoslovakia: Most of its B-teams fielded at least five players who have already played A-inernational matches. The team that beat Indonesia 5-1 on 26-09-1956 fielded even three players who already have won at least ten caps.

England: The England B-team that played against another coutries A-teams mostly fielded at least five players who have already played full A-internationals. Sometimes there are very unexperienced sides as against Netherlands (26-03-1952), New Zealand (15-10-1979) Malta (14-10-1987) with only 2, 1 and even no players who have already played full internationals. The team that played against Algeria (11-12-1990) and Iceland (27-04-1991) fielded 6 and 7 players who have played A-internationals before. Also the team that made the tour to Down Under and Asia in 1978 was relatively experienced, always fielding at least five players who played full internationals before.
In 1950 England used its B-team to prepare for the 1950 World Cup tournament. The team that played against Netherlands on 22-02-1950 fielded four A-international players, the team that toured (simulatneously with England A) the Continent three months later fielded mostly five A-international players and two players who made theire full internaional debut at the World Cup tournament. Though England B was disappointing (5-0 defeat against Italy B (de facto Italy weakened A-team), 3-0 defeat against Netherlands, 2-1 win against Luxembourg (after being 1-0 down at half time)) seven players who toured with the England B-team were selected for the 1950 World Cup team.

France: far most of the matches with players who never won a full cap before, but also the B-team with most players that will make their full international debut soon. Sometimes France B fielded a team without any player that apperead in an A-international match before, which is exceptional if we compare the French B-teams with other countries B-teams.

Italy: Italian B-teams are one of the least experienced B-teams except the team that played Luxembourg on 15-05-1938 which fielded four players that already played A-international matches. Eight of that team were drafted into the squad that will win the World Cup five weeks later. Colaussi, who scored twice in the final against Hungary, is one of them. Usually not more than two – very unexperienced – players appeared in Italian B-team. As in other countries B-teams most of the uncapped players will play official A-internationals later, only a few uncapped Italy B-players made their A-international debut later.
Italy's B-team that beat England B on 11-05-1950 was rather a weakened A-team than a B-team. It was a preparation match for the 1950 World Cup, ten of the Italian players were selected for the Italian World Cup squad, seven of them haf played A-internationals previously. Engeland B was also a mix of A- and B-players.

Netherlands: Most of the Dutch B-teams fielded four players who have already played A-inernationals including also some experienced A-international players. Sometimes the B-team is more than just a reserve team.

The team that beat USA 3-2 on 01-06-1928 consisted of players who were part of the Dutch 1928 Olympic Games selection as yoy can read here http://roonba.20.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=1068

The Dutch team is labelled as B-team which you can read here too. http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_van_voetbalinterlands_Nederlands_B-voetbalelftal The book Oranje Toen en Nu deel 3 1927-1932 and 2002/2003 reports on page 59:

Amsterdam, 01-06-1928: Netherlands 3-2 USA; Dutch goalscorers: Freese (2), Van der Griend; spectators: 100 (one hundred)
Netherlands: De Boer (Ajax): Van Run (PSV), Van der Zalm (VUC); Kools (NAC), Vis (HVV), Krom (RCH); Smeets (HBS), Tap (ADO), Freese (Heracles), Van der Griend (Hermes DVS), Weber (Sparta).

The book mentioned the reserves team that beat USA 3-2 was reinforced with some A-players. All players that played against USA were part of the Dutch selection for the 1928 Olympics. Freese and Ghering played on 30-05-1928 against Uruguay, the other nine were the non playing reserves. After the elimination the Dutch played against Belgium (05-06-1928 and Chile (08-06-1928 for the consolation tournament and an extra friendly against Egypt (14-06-1928. In these matches Kools, Krom, Smeets, Tap and Weber also played. Van der Griend also played two full A-internationals against Belgium (11-03-1928 and 01-04-1928.

Actually the Dutch intended to play with many reserves the 1928 Olymic Games consolation tournament. But plans changed when the Dutch had to play Belgium. As this used to be a very prestigeous match the Dutch decided to field a full strengthened team: Kools, Krom, Smeets, Tap and Weber (who played against USA) were also included in the team that played against Belgium.


The team that beat Luxembourg 1-0 on 27-03-1948 fielded only three players that played A-international matches before, but three of them made their official A-international debut in the first A-international Netherlands would play (on 18-04-1948 against Belgium). Eight of the players who appearde against Luxembourg played official A-international matches in the 14-03-1948 – 09-06-1948 era.

The team that beat Luxembourg 3-0 on 29-09-1965 was a mix between Ateam. Dutch team manager Dennis Neville used this match to test some players for the crucial World Cup qualifying matches against Switzerland in October and November. Actually five players who had already played A-international matches would have been fielded, but eventually four of them played.

Last Edited By: Fast Midfielder Sep 25 13 9:22 AM. Edited 2 times.

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#53 [url]

May 22 12 9:26 PM

Fast Midfielder wrote:
However somewhere at the beginning of the article is written "Jong Oranje" is a more attractive name as "Netherlands B".


Does it mean "attractive" in the sense that, it is better for players' morale to be playing for a team with a positive name "Jong Oranje" (i.e. The Future Oranje!), rather than a negative name "Nederland B" (i.e. second choice, not good enough etc) ? Similarly for spectators it is more positive to see the Future rather than the Reserves.

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#54 [url]

Jul 25 12 4:26 PM

Meanwhile I contacted LFL about the 26-10-1960 Netherlands B - Luxembourg match they labelled as South Netherlands - Luxembourg and I am waiting for their reply.

Despite of the many reminders I sent still no sign received by LFL

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TheRoonBa

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#55 [url]

Jul 26 12 12:23 AM

Fast Midfielder wrote:

I agree with you, because "Jong Oranje" is also called "Voorportaal tot het Nederlands elftal" (is "Porch to the Dutch NT the right translation or can you call it rather something like "Gate to the Dutch NT"?)


I think "Gateway to the Dutch NT" would be approximately the same.

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#57 [url]

Sep 25 12 4:23 PM

Well the mail I sent I have already researched. Dutch team that played Luxembourg on 26-10-1960 was not Southern Netherlands as labelled by FLF but Netherlands B as some players came from other regions (as also explained in this topic). I wanted them to inform about.........

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#58 [url]

Sep 25 12 6:08 PM

Fast Midfielder wrote:
Dutch team that played Luxembourg on 26-10-1960 was not Southern Netherlands as labelled by FLF but Netherlands B as some players came from other regions (as also explained in this topic).

It was not Netherlands B but Netherlands u23 (a.k.a. Jong Oranje) as you said before. Source: 'Handboek KNVB 1968'.

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#59 [url]

Sep 25 12 6:21 PM

Sensini wrote:
Fast Midfielder wrote:
Dutch team that played Luxembourg on 26-10-1960 was not Southern Netherlands as labelled by FLF but Netherlands B as some players came from other regions (as also explained in this topic).

It was not Netherlands B but Netherlands u23 (a.k.a. Jong Oranje) as you said before. Source: 'Handboek KNVB 1968'.

Don't you mix up this game with the one played on 07-03-1962? The game played on 26-10-1960 is labelled as played by Netherlands B. In the report some players were mentioned: Coy Coopal, Jan Notermans, Cees Groot and Henk Schouten were born in 1932, Piet Fransen in 1936. So four of the players were already 28 years in 1960 another one 24.

Luxembourg labelled the 26-10-1960 match against Netherlands B (7-4 win for Netherlands B) as South Netherlands - Luxembourg. According to this article http://kranten.kb.nl/view/article/id/ddd%3A010678613%3Ampeg21%3Ap007%3Aa0155 it was Netherlands B that played the match. Three of the players mentioned (Schouten, Cees Groot and Piet Fransen) were not from Southern clubs and also not born in the Southern region (provinces Zeeland, Noord-Brabant and Limburg).


http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Notermans
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henk_Schouten
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cees_Groot
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piet_Fransen_(Groningen)
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coy_Koopal

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#60 [url]

Sep 25 12 6:31 PM

Fast Midfielder wrote:
Don't you mix up this game with the one played on 07-03-1962? The game played on 26-10-1960 is labelled as played by Netherlands B.

Oops, indeed I mixed them up, sorry for the confusion

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