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#21 [url]

May 24 14 9:56 AM

TheRoonBa wrote:
Anybody have any idea what this "Tortona tournament" was that China supposedly won in August 1986? I've only found Chinese language evidence that this happened and that China won it, but no mention of who they played to win it.

An answer to this one and to other questions about the women's football of thirty years ago was certainly contained in "Gol Lei", which was an official bulletin/magazine, monthly issued by FIGCF  (Federazione Italiana Giuoco Calcio Femminile).
But from many years FIGCF merged into FIGC and my opinion is that nobody, in FIGC, is now avaible to open the archives and find these information.     


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#23 [url]

May 24 14 8:59 PM

From Nexis:

The Xinhua General Overseas News Service
AUGUST 11, 1986, MONDAY
china wins international soccer tourney in rome
LENGTH: 73 words
DATELINE: rome, august 11; ITEM NO: 0811053
the chinese women's soccer team outplayed the italian club team 2-0 in the finals to win the tortona international women's soccer tournament here sunday.
niu lijie scored the two goals for the chinese side in the 27th minute and 78th minute.
the chinese team was also awarded the best team cup and best goalkeeper cup at the tournament which drew teams from the federal republic of germany, brazil, switzerland, china and italy.


There are also articles about a tournament in Venice in July 1986.

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TheRoonBa

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#24 [url]

May 25 14 9:57 AM

I didn't even think of Nexis... How dim-witted of me.

Hmm, I thought it was called the Tortona tournament because it was in Tortona, not Rome... "The Italian club team" - very informative. At least it mentioned the nationality of the other representatives, which might give some input for further research in German or Portuguese.  I would guess it was a 6-team tournament with 2 groups of 3 (West German, Brazilian, Chinese, Swiss teams + 2 Italian teams), but that might be wildly off the mark.

The tournament in Venice was the 1986 Mundialito in Jesolo (Venezia province), which is documented on RSSSF.  Given that Brazil played in this, there is a good chance it was the Brazil NT in the Tortona tournament as well, considering it began about a week after the Mundialito ended.  However, RSSSF Brazil mentions nothing of this tournament in its detailed account of the women's national team.

Last Edited By: TheRoonBa May 25 14 10:21 AM. Edited 2 times.

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TheRoonBa

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#25 [url]

May 25 14 10:37 AM

Incidentally, the 1982 Mundialito listed on RSSSF was actually held in 1981 in Kobe and Tokyo, Japan. It was a 4-team tournament, with a strange format - Japan, Italy, England and Denmark played, but only 4 matches were held (Italy-England and Japan-Denmark were not played)

06/09/1981 ◘ Kobe (Japan) Denmark 1 - 1 Italy
06/09/1981 ◘ Kobe (Japan) Japan 0 - 4 England
09/09/1981 ◘ Tokyo (Japan) Denmark 1 - 0 England
09/09/1981 ◘ Tokyo (Japan) Japan 0 - 9 Italy

1. Italy
2. Denmark
3. England
4. Japan

Had the other 2 matches been played, Italy might not have won the tournament. They won largely due to the fact they played the (at-the-time) much weaker Japan while Denmark had to play England.

Last Edited By: TheRoonBa May 25 14 10:41 AM. Edited 1 time.

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#26 [url]

May 25 14 1:06 PM

TheRoonBa wrote:
Had the other 2 matches been played, Italy might not have won the tournament. They won largely due to the fact they played the (at-the-time) much weaker Japan while Denmark had to play England.

Don't forget, please, Italy women, at that time, was much stronger than today.
Before 1982 Mundialito they had already played England four times, winning three times (2-0; 2-0; 1-0) and loosing only one (0-1).


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TheRoonBa

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#27 [url]

May 26 14 12:05 PM

Yes, but in this case, it was Denmark I was talking about (Denmark beat England in Japan). If Denmark had played Japan and Italy had played England, then Denmark would surely have won the title.  Even though Italy was strong, I don't think they would have scored more against England than Denmark would have scored against Japan.  If Italy scored 9 against Japan, then Denmark would almost certainly have scored at least 3.

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#29 [url]

May 26 14 3:03 PM

TheRoonBa wrote:
Yes, but in this case, it was Denmark I was talking about (Denmark beat England in Japan). If Denmark had played Japan and Italy had played England, then Denmark would surely have won the title.  Even though Italy was strong, I don't think they would have scored more against England than Denmark would have scored against Japan.  If Italy scored 9 against Japan, then Denmark would almost certainly have scored at least 3.

Just to continue joking in our 32 years later assumptions.

When the tnmt stopped, both Italy and Denmark had 1 win and 1 draw each.

Italy had 10 goals scored vs only one suffered.

Denmark was 2 vs 1.

This means a gap of 8 goals in favour of Italy.

Now, giving for sure that:

a.Italy beat England (in brackets, last time I was wrong: Italy had already won vs England four times – not three- and lost only one), with a minimum of 1 goal difference

and:

b. Denmark beat Japan,

Denmark would have won the tnmt only in case of a victory vs Japan with 10 (or more) goals difference.

Frankly speaking, I have many many doubts about that. With all the respect for Denmark (and Japan, too).      

 




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#30 [url]

May 26 14 7:31 PM

nfm24 wrote:
Was it definitely a group then, and not semis / 3PP / final ?
In that case, how was Denmark - Italy decided? Both figc.it and dbu.dk don't mention extra time, penalty shoot-out, drawing of lots, tossing of coins, eeny meeny miny moe... 

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#32 [url]

May 26 14 9:28 PM

Giampaolo wrote:
Italy - Denmark final position was decided, evidently, by goal difference:
Italy 10 vs 1
Denmark 2 vs 1.
What I meant was: if the tournament was not a group but semis / 3PP / final (which Neill gives as an option for the strange format), how was Italy - Denmark decided?

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#33 [url]

May 27 14 7:14 AM

Sensini wrote:
What I meant was: if the tournament was not a group but semis / 3PP / final (which Neill gives as an option for the strange format), how was Italy - Denmark decided?

Either the format was different, or the Tnmt was interrupted at the second leg (due to the Japan crash vs Italy ??). In both cases, the final position between Italy and Denmark was decided by goal difference.



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#35 [url]

May 27 14 9:13 PM

nfm24 wrote:
I was only hypothesizing. Sometimes penalties or tie-breakers are not reported in the stats.
What a silly tournament!
Silly? May be.
But before reaching a conclusion, we should get all the necessary complete information. And I am afraid it will never happen.

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TheRoonBa

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#36 [url]

May 28 14 1:28 PM

Sorry - About the 32 years later assumptions, you misunderstood my point. My point was - it seems to have been decided beforehand that the tournament would consist of only 4 matches. If Denmark had played Japan and England had played Italy on 9th September (instead of the other way around), then Denmark would have won with a better goal difference (Italy would not have those 9 goals against Japan).  I don't think Italy were good enough to beat England by more goals than Denmark would have beaten Japan by.

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TheRoonBa

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#37 [url]

May 28 14 1:37 PM

The tournament was held as part of the Kobe Port Island Exposition - "Pier 81 International Women's Tournament" - 「ポートピア81国際女子サッカー」This was an expo to officially open an artificial island (Port Island) which had been constructed over the previous 15 years.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Island


 For fun, please check this video of Italy Women 0-2 Denmark Women in the final of the unofficial World Championship of 1970. The celebrations of the Danish coaching staff after the first goal are extremely terrible.  I like how the fat guy stopped the other celebrating guy from lifting him.



Last Edited By: TheRoonBa May 28 14 2:48 PM. Edited 5 times.

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#39 [url]

May 28 14 3:48 PM

TheRoonBa wrote:
Sorry - About the 32 years later assumptions, you misunderstood my point. My point was - it seems to have been decided beforehand that the tournament would consist of only 4 matches. If Denmark had played Japan and England had played Italy on 9th September (instead of the other way around), then Denmark would have won with a better goal difference (Italy would not have those 9 goals against Japan).  I don't think Italy were good enough to beat England by more goals than Denmark would have beaten Japan by.

Thanks for the video.

Coming back to our  hypothetical discussion.

Ok-  now I understand that when you wrote “had the other two matches been played” you meant:  “in place of the pair Denmark-England/ Japan-Italy”, and not as a completion of the tournament.

In this case, most probably, Denmark would have been first.

But in case the other two matches would have been played “in place of the pair Denmark-Italy/ Japan –England”, who would have won?  

Italy, most probably. Because  England was clearly weaker than Italy;  and beat Japan with more than 9 goals was really hard:  also for Denmark.   




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TheRoonBa

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#40 [url]

May 29 14 9:54 AM

Difficult to say - Did Italy score 9 against Japan because Japan were tired from their previous match against England? England only lost 1-0 to Denmark - so they were not 'clearly' weaker than Italy (who only drew 1-1 with Denmark). Did England only score 4 against Japan because they didn't know what to expect from this new team? Did Italy then benefit from having seen Japan and discovering that they weren't very good? If Japan had played Italy first instead of England, would they have conceded 9 goals?

However - if 2 more matches were simply added to the end, then yes, I concede - Italy would have been favourites to win - but there is a good chance they might not have beaten England. Denmark drew with Italy, but only managed to beat England 1-0. It's not unreasonable to think that Italy might have struggled against England too. Also, if Denmark knew they needed 9 goals, it might be possible for them to score 9 if they were focused on that target. I think this is also why Italy managed to score 9 - they knew they needed a better goal difference than Denmark to win the tournament.

So, many factors to consider ;-)

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