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Jul 30 14 1:59 PM

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_Fajr_International_Tournament

Aside from what is on Wikipedia (as of today), I have the following additional results from a Pakistan newspaper:
Poland 3-0 Pakistan
Syria 1-0 Pakistan

Also from the Team Melli website,  Iran B  0-0  Khuzestan XI

Anybody have any more?
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#1 [url]

Jul 31 14 2:49 PM


Group A
14- 2-86 Iran 5-0 Syria B
14- 2-86 Poland U21 3-0 Pakistan
16- 2-86 Iran 2-0 Pakistan
16- 2-86 Poland U21 4-0 Syria B
18- 2-86 Poland U21 0-0 Iran [1-3 pen]
18- 2-86 Syria B 1-0 Pakistan

1.IRAN 3 2 1 0 7- 0 5
2.POLAND U21 3 2 1 0 7- 0 5
3.Syria B 3 1 0 2 1- 9 2
4.Pakistan 3 0 0 3 0- 6 0

Group B
13- 2-86 Romania XI 1-0 Iran B
13- 2-86 Ghana 2-0 Khuzestan
15- 2-86 Iran B 3-0 Ghana [or 1-0 ?]
15- 2-86 Romania XI 3-0 Khuzestan
17- 2-86 Iran B 0-0 Khuzestan
17- 2-86 Ghana 1-0 Romania XI

1.ROMANIA XI 3 2 0 1 4- 1 4 2.GHANA 3 2 0 1 3- 3 4 3.Iran B 3 1 1 1 3- 1 3 4.Khuzestan 3 0 1 2 0- 5 1 [province of Iran]
Semi-finals
20- 2-86 Poland U21 w/o Romania XI
20- 2-86 Iran 2-0 Ghana [or 19- 2-86]

Third place match
- 2-86 Ghana 1-0 Romania XI

Final
22- 2-86 Poland U21 2-2 Iran [AET, 3-2 pen] [or 21- 2-86]


More info welcome.   Most of the dates above are a common sense best fit based on implicit reports from Przeglad Sportowy and retrospective "on this day" Farsi articles. 
Update : some info from "Ghanaian Times".

Note: Przeglad Sportowy said that Poland with the group stage tiebreaker shootout.  A Farsi source says Iran won it... which fits better with the semifinal pairings.

Last Edited By: nfm24 Aug 6 14 10:57 PM. Edited 2 times.

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#4 [url]

Jul 31 14 4:24 PM

I may look at Ghana newspapers in future. For now I think we can assume it was some kind of youth team, although Iran 2-0 Ghana has long been listed as a full international on RSSSF, TeamMelli.com, and derivative sources. Pakistan was the full national team.

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#5 [url]

Aug 6 14 10:50 PM

Surprisingly, Ghana was the full national team in both the Fajr tournament AND the West African tournament.
They thought the Fajr tournament would end before Feb 20th... the team arrived back in Ghana just before the opening ceremony in Accra.

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TheRoonBa

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#6 [url]

Aug 7 14 2:10 AM

nfm24 wrote:
Surprisingly, Ghana was the full national team in both the Fajr tournament AND the West African tournament.
They thought the Fajr tournament would end before Feb 20th... the team arrived back in Ghana just before the opening ceremony in Accra.
Then they won the West African tournament just to prove that jetlag is a myth.

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#8 [url]

Aug 7 14 2:03 PM

Great job, Neil!!
Had you, may be, also the possibility to check on Ghana's newpapers the followings?
a.  15-02-86 Iran B - Ghana 3-0 or 1-0
b.  Iran - Ghana on 19 or 20 (02-86)
c.  date of Third Place Match Ghana - Romania XI 1-0.

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#9 [url]

Aug 7 14 11:58 PM

Giampaolo wrote:
Great job, Neil!!
Had you, may be, also the possibility to check on Ghana's newpapers the followings?
Nothing specific in the "Ghanaian Times".

The only issue which mentioned any scores of the tournament was Thursday 20th February 1986, which said (paraphrasing):
 The Black Stars in the tournament in Iran have won two matches and lost one.
 They lost 0-1 to Iran but beat Romania 1-0 and Pakistan 2-0  [NFM: I have assumed "Pakistan" should be Khuzestan].
 Thus they have qualified for the semi-finals.
 However the team is being recalled to Ghana to prepare for the SCSA Zone III tournament which kicks off Sunday. It is expected back home tomorrow.  [NFM: a later issue mentioned they arrived back later than this, so they must have stayed for the semis and 3PP but no further results mentioned, and no precise dates at all]

The answers to your questions, I fear, exist only in Iranian newspapers.

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#10 [url]

Aug 8 14 2:32 PM

My opinion:
1. 15.02.1986  Iran B - Ghana 1-0 (according to "Ghanaian Times")
2. No Third Place Match (Ghana - Romania XI) played, because:
    - Ghanaian Team had to come back asap to their Country (probably they were not expected, at the beginning, to play finally for the first four places)
    - No result mentioned in Ghanaian newspaper
    - Doubtful that two Matches Ghana - Romania XI (one in the Group, the second one for the 3rd Place) ended same result (1-0 in favour of Ghana).
But, of course, these are only suppositions.
The answer, as you say, could be found (how?) only in Iranian newspapers.


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TheRoonBa

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#11 [url]

Aug 8 14 2:53 PM

Also, from the results given earlier, Poland U-21 seemed to get a walkover over Romania XI in the semi-finals (Romania XI had to go home early or withdrew?). In either of these 2 cases, there would have been no team for Ghana to play, so the 3rd place match would have been cancelled on 20th February after Romania XI had expressed their inability to continue in the competition (if this indeed did happen).

Last Edited By: TheRoonBa Aug 8 14 3:07 PM. Edited 1 time.

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#12 [url]

Aug 9 14 1:27 AM

Normally I don't mind people critiquing my work but I would prefer there to be some basis for it beyond mere speculation.
Speculation is dangerous - already three of us on this thread were prepared to assume that it was not the Ghana national team, until I confirmed that it was.

Iran B 3-0 Ghana was reported in Przeglad Sportowy (edition 18 Feb).   As was Ghana 1-0 Romania (third place), in edition 24 Feb.   
Iran B 3-0 Ghana is also mentioned in Iranian retrospective articles.


> The answer, as you say, could be found (how?) only in Iranian newspapers.
Newspaper archives exist in libraries, and sometimes they even allow people inside to look at them.   However nobody else seems able/willing to do this, which is disappointing.

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#13 [url]

Aug 9 14 8:45 AM

Neil,
I didn't critiqued your work. I said  (read my post) that you did a great job.
Also, I never spent a word (read my post) about status of Ghana, before you confirmed it was NT. .
But I thought being free, taking into account your investigation on Ghanaian newspaper, to expose, in a free Forum, my. . . (as you call them) speculation. Was it unfair?
After all, I am not the only one (read the previous post) to . . . speculate that (may be) the Third Place Match was not played.
  

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TheRoonBa

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#14 [url]

Aug 9 14 9:57 AM

I think it would be interesting to know the reasons for Romania XI handing a walkover to Poland U-21.

I think most of us assumed (wrongly) that Ghana did not use their national team in Iran. It just seemed the most plausible solution considering the sheer number of matches in such a short space of time. But there is no substitute for proper newspaper research. It would be good if others in other countries (in Europe, USA, Australia) could spend some time in libraries/newspaper reading rooms - there is a lot of information and many answers to questions to be found. Unfortunately, I have only been able to do this on a limited basis myself, but even this little bit of effort yielded quite a lot of new info and answers to old questions. Neil has done much more, not just in this country, but also in the US, fitting his research into his work schedule.

The main problem, in my mind, is that most researchers tend to focus on their own country, and saturate that topic. So we might have a Spanish researcher who works hard, so we end up knowing the nicknames and birthplaces of all Spanish players since 1915, or something like that, while more interesting (in my opinion) research could be done looking for Equatorial Guinea results, or football in Spanish Sahara/Sidi Ifni. French researchers are notably absent - there doesn't seem to be many people studying West Africa from a Francophone perspective. Likewise, Portuguese studying the former Portuguese colonies' footballing activity. In fairness, people in those countries may not be interested in those 'exotic' places (but many people on this forum are), so it makes things more difficult, as it perhaps means we have to travel to France, Spain, Portugal to research in a language we are not fluent in.

My main limitation is financial - I simply can't afford to do as much research as I'd like to. But if I did have more resources, I'd want to spend the time and effort researching every country, not just 1 or 2. I'd be looking at African, Caribbean, Pacific Island newspapers trying to find out new stuff. When there is so much that we don't know, it makes more sense to look for the unknowns than to 'pad out' what we already know with more information.

Of course, all of this necessitates having an interest in every country - which I accept not everyone shares. It's genuinely difficult to find people who are equally (or more) interested in Grenada than they are Greece. Many people tend to become interested only if their country takes part in an exotic tournament. In the fictional example above, a Greek researcher might only be interested in Grenada with regard to a short tour Greece made to Grenada. While every piece of research is helpful, I don't think this particular approach is the best approach to having a truly global picture of footballing events.

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#15 [url]

Aug 9 14 9:04 PM

Giampaolo wrote:
After all, I am not the only one (read the previous post) to . . . speculate that (may be) the Third Place Match was not played.
  
Exactly, you are not the only one - I was not referring only to you!  

I myself wrongly assumed that Ghana was probably not the national team, along with Piet and Mark (and nobody else posted to disagree with us).  So this was a good reminder to us all about the dangers of speculation in general ;-)

However, even *after* this reminder, two of you then speculated that the third place match was not played, despite that I had already listed it above as a confirmed match result (because I had consulted a source which reported it). This is why I am puzzled. I don't understand why my findings were being disputed in this way – they are based on bonafide publications.  Sure, maybe some of the publications were wrong and maybe your suppositions are right.  But you need some evidence first.  Until then, why not stick with the version I wrote, which is based on the evidence I gathered.

Speculation is only necessary when we find two (or more) sources which disagree, then we may speculate on which is correct  (preferably the conflict of sources should be noted).  Or when we have no source whatsoever, in which case it is preferable to instead try to find one (as I did).   Anybody can look at this tournament on wikipedia and see that something looks strange with Ghana & Romania. That is very obvious.  But not everybody is willing to actually go to consult some sources and try to find the missing info and work to establish the real situation.

Nobody else provided any other information/sources/evidence here on this tournament since I first posted.  Nor offered any intention of finding more.   We could use help from a Romanian (I asked Romeo Ionescu, no response). We could use help from an Iranian (I emailed two, no response). The Polish information came from Gwidon Naskrent, an impeccable researcher with a long history on RSSSF (and there can certainly be no questioning his interpretation of the Polish text because he is a professional translator).

So until more real information is discovered, I would prefer to leave any remaining question marks and unknowns as they are, without “guessing” them.  It may encourage someone who does have access to Farsi or Romanian newspapers one day to plug the gaps.

TheRoonBa wrote:
I think it would be interesting to know the reasons for Romania XI handing a walkover to Poland U-21.
Well of course, and if I knew I would have written something. Even the Polish source did not mention anything about it, strangely. If anybody wants to suggest somewhere for me to look, or someone to ask, please do.

I even looked in the “Tehran Times” around the dates of this tournament. Unfortunately that “newspaper” is really just an anti-Zionist propaganda pamphlet, and did not have any coverage of local sport at all. There is also something called “Ittila'at” in the British Library which I think is a Farsi newspaper.   I might look at that next time.

The information clearly exists somewhere.  For example, here is a list of Iran vs Syria matches, with lineups:
http://www.farsnews.com/printable.php?nn=8505240104

Agree with your point about saturation. RSSSF is a good example of this – extraordinary in-depth coverage of East German players league appearances, or club colours of small islands, but other topics are neglected. But this is a simple consequence of the fact that, like Wikipedia, the content of RSSSF is determined by the contributions made. There is no real editing of content per se, and certainly no directing of research into areas where info is lacking. For that, we would need some sort of academic-style Institute, with funding. And what is the only organization that could potentially establish such an Institute? (groan)

TheRoonBa wrote:
In fairness, people in those countries may not be interested in those 'exotic' places (but many people on this forum are)
I have plenty of requests for a password on cantab.net from people all over the world. You can also check your hit counters on The Roon Ba. There are plenty of people, in a variety of countries, who collect the same sort of info as us. But most of them just collect. They do not necessarily find anything “new” historically, and do not actively publicize or share what they have. They cut and paste other people's work (usually without asking or citing), then they reformat it into their own private and personal database. If only they all worked together!
TheRoonBa wrote:
My main limitation is financial - I simply can't afford to do as much research as I'd like to. But if I did have more resources, I'd want to spend the time and effort researching every country, not just 1 or 2. I'd be looking at African, Caribbean, Pacific Island newspapers trying to find out new stuff.
Well yes that's exactly what we did do together last year, a joint work in which you provided the accommodation and cooking, and I provided the transportation and funding.   In future we could work out some other distribution of resources, and maybe also recruit more people in the work.   Maybe we can have a whip round to buy your train tickets ;-)

Libraries are there, open every day (almost), waiting to be used. There is nothing special about what we did really, any other collector/enthusiast could do the same.

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TheRoonBa

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#16 [url]

Aug 10 14 9:22 PM

Does anybody have any suggestions for how they could contribute to the collection of international football results on a global scale (i.e. by going to libraries in their own country)?

I'd like to hear somebody else say "Yeah, that's a great idea, let's do X and Y, and I can go to Z and get some info there". So far, I'm not hearing much support for this project of helping to collect international football results (going beyond Europe).

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#18 [url]

Aug 11 14 6:34 PM

TheRoonBa wrote:
Does anybody have any suggestions for how they could contribute to the collection of international football results on a global scale (i.e. by going to libraries in their own country)? 
Well, it's not that I'm not interested. However, I have other subjects I'm researching at the moment (KNVB Beker (Dutch FA Cup) 1921-1950, Dutch catholic league (till 1940), Dutch B-, amateur- olympic- and youth internationals, Kingdom Games, CFU- and CONCACAF youth championships...). I researched Netherlands Antilles/Curaçao/Aruba a while back, I will publish the resultst on my blog later. Maybe I'll have a go at Suriname (although probably already completely covered in this topic) and Netherlands Indies/Indonesia in the (near) future.
Also, since I don't have much time to visit archives and libraries, I do most of my research on the web.
But if you have a specific question regarding the Netherlands or former colonies, just ask.

Anyway, Soccer Nostalgia has some scanned editions of full magazines (Onze, World Soccer, Voetbal International, Fussball Magazin, Mondial, etc.) online which can be useful:

____________________________

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#19 [url]

Aug 11 14 6:55 PM

It's all good work but doesn't research on the web also take time?  And what happens when there are no sources on the web for a given year or tournament?  Are we supposed to wait for everything to be digitized so we can search by keyword?

There is a university in Leiden which is a member of SEAM and CAMP  so it should be possible for anybody near Leiden to join and order newspapers from South East Asia and Africa, for just the cost of the shipping.

Last Edited By: nfm24 Aug 11 14 6:59 PM. Edited 1 time.

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#20 [url]

Aug 13 14 11:46 AM

Hmm, everybody is conspicuously quiet now. Looks like we scared them.

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