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#61 [url]

Jan 31 12 7:42 AM

http://www.rsssf.com/tablesc/china-olyteam36.html

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TheRoonBa

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#62 [url]

Jan 31 12 5:01 PM

nfm24 wrote:
http://www.rsssf.com/tablesc/china-olyteam36.html


Oops - didn't notice that there

A few differences from zuqiuziliao.cn

The 2 matches on 19/04/1936 were actually one match (China played 45 minutes against each team).

11/06/1936 - All Medan 0-2 China (RSSSF has 1-2 and 11/06 for date)
04/07/1936 - Match was against "Calcutta" or "Indian champions" (I thought this might mean Calcutta league champions). West Bengal's state FA is called the "Indian Football Association"

Interesting that "Casuals" came out as "UK Wales" when I did the translation

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#63 [url]

Jan 31 12 8:46 PM

mcruic wrote:
The 2 matches on 19/04/1936 were actually one match (China played 45 minutes against each team).


Not according to the "China Mail":

China Mail, Mon 20 Apr 1936:
At Caroline Hill yesterday:
China B 5-4 HKFA B
Goals: Cheuk Shek-Kam, Ip Pak-Wa x2, Tio Hian-Guan, Yeung Shui-Yick / Fowler x2 (1 pen), Knox, Costa
[Fowler missed a penalty just before the end.]
China B: Wong Ki-Leung; Chung Fai-Lum, Yue Hing-Yuen; S.D.Liang[=Leung Shiu-Tong], Wong Mei-Shun, Lee Kwok-Wai; K.L.Kia[=Chia Yu-Liang], Cheuk Shek-Kam, Tio Hian-Guan, Ip Pak-Wah, Yeung Shui-Yick.
HKFA B: Boyes; Everest, Bowen; Blackburn, Costa, Elms; Fowler, G.White, Forrow, Pearce, D.Knox.
Mak Shui-Hon was ill so place taken by Chung Fai-Lum. Yue Hing-Yuen played at left back in place of Chua Boon Lay who had gone to Singapore.

China A 7-1 HKFA A [70 minute match]
Goals: Lee Wai-Tong x4, Elms OG, Suen Kam-Shun x2 / Beltrao 5'
China A: Pau Ka-Ping; Lee Tin-Sang, Tam Kong-Pak; Leung Wing-Chiu, Tsui Ah-Fai, 'Darkie' Chan Chan-Wo; Tso Kwai-Shing, Suen Kam-Shun, Fung King-Cheung, Lee Wai-Tong, Tay Quee-Liang.
HKFA A: G.Rodger; Syd Strange, F.J.Elms; Farrow, N.Beltrao, Ernie Strange; F.Fowler, A.Ward, D.Leonard, G.White, B.I.Bickford.
Due to poor organisation, several HKFA players failed to show up, and so four players who had already played in the B game had to play in the A game too.


mcruic wrote:

11/06/1936 - All Medan 0-2 China (RSSSF has 1-2 and 11/06 for date)


I had conflicting sources:

HK Sunday Herald, Sun 14 Jun 1936
Medan, Jun 13 - China Olympic beat All-Medan 2-1 on Friday (1-0 HT).
Goals: Suen Kam-Shun, Tso Kwai-Shing / ?

China Mail, Tue 21 Jul 1936
Gives summary of results, including: Jun 11 vs Medan 2-0.

Without confirmation, I originally followed the Hong Kong Sunday Herald on the grounds that it gave some detail (scorers) and came only two days after the match.

However, now we have better sources: "De Sumatra Post" confirms it was 2-0 on June 11th. In fact the score should have been 1-0 , because the report says that the first Chinese goal was a shot which passed through the outside (side netting).
http://kranten.kb.nl/view/article/id/ddd%3A010383665%3Ampeg21%3Ap006%3Aa0138/


04/07/1936 - Match was against "Calcutta" or "Indian champions" (I thought this might mean Calcutta league champions). West Bengal's state FA is called the "Indian Football Association"


"The Indian Express" (Madras) reports it as an Indian national team.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=6sA-AAAAIBAJ&sjid=bkwMAAAAIBAJ&pg=6312%2C288254
Although if you read the adjacent column, you can understand the selection issues.


Interesting that "Casuals" came out as "UK Wales" when I did the translation


凯休尔斯 = (phonetically) "kai hsiu er si" - this is about as close to "Casuals" as is possible in Chinese.
If you run the syllables together differently you get "kay-hsi u-er-si" -- I can see why this might be interpreted as "UK Wales". I think the moral is to ignore google for team names unless the are fairly obvious (e.g. the city is given).

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#64 [url]

Jan 31 12 10:51 PM

Based on other reports from "De Sumatra Post", some more minor corrections:

30- 5 Semarang         Rest of Semarang          0-9  China  (the main Semarang team was
playing inter-city championship games)
5- 6 Batavia Batavia Chinese 0-3 China (combination of U.M.S. and T.N.H.)
11- 6 Medan All-Medan 0-2 China (as above)
16- 6 Medan Medan Natives 2-5 China (date adjusted)

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#65 [url]

Feb 1 12 9:57 PM

Some additions from newspapers in italic:

mcruic wrote:
Jakarta
17/05/1936 "Petaling Wei Wing" 1-2 China
Bandung
19/05/1936 Bandung Combined 2-2 China
> Bandoengsch FA XI, De Sumatra Post 25 May
Surabaya
21/05/1936 Surabaya Workers XI 1-10 China > 2-10; SIVB (Soerabaja Inlandsche Voetbalbond, Surabaya Native FA) (De Sumatra Post 22 may)
> 2x/05/1936 VBO (an FA XI) 1-2 China De Sumatra Post 22 May)
23/05/1936 "Surabaya Champions" 1-3 China
24/05/1936 Surabaya Combined 1-3 China
> 23/05 HBS (clubteam); 24/05 Soerabajasche FA XI De Sumatra Post 25 May
Malang
26/05/1936 Malang Combined 0-1 China
> 2x/05/1936 Pekalongan - China cancelled De Sumatra Post 25 May
(...)
Jakarta
04/06/1936 "Jakarta Champions" 2-7 China
05/06/1936 Qunli Chinese Youth 0-3 China > UMS/TNH combination (both clubteams) De Sumatra Post 6 June
(...)
Medan
11/06/1936 Medan Combined 0-2 China > De Sumatra Post 12 June with photo of the teams
13/06/1936 West Medan Combined? ("Cotton Lancey United") 0-4 > European OSVB FA XI, De Sumatra Post 15 June and photo of the teams
14/06/1936 East Medan Combined? ("Cotton Lansu East Wing") 0-2 China
16/06/1936 Medan Workers XI 2-5 China > Native FA XIDe Sumatra Post 17 June
> 11/06 Medan district XI; 13/06 OSVB XI (Oost Sumatra Voetbalbond;East Sumatra FA); 14/06 European FA XI; 16/06 Native XI: De Sumatra Post 25 May
(...)
Amsterdam
27/08/1936 Ajax (amateur) 5-3 China
As professional football was accepted in the Netherlands officially only in 1954, you can just say Ajax.

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#68 [url]

Mar 1 12 5:10 PM

nfm24 wrote:

1983 Great Wall Cup
7.18 Thailand (5-4) Hong Kong
7.20 August First 3-2 Hong Kong
7.22 Odense 2-2(8-7) Hong Kong
7.17 Tianjin 1-1 (7-6) Algeria hopes


In RSSSF:
Thailand - Hong Kong 1-1 (4-3)
August First - Hong Kong 0-0 (3-2)
Odense - Hong Kong 3-3 (5-4)
Tianjin - Algeria drw (7-6)

1. Who is right?
2. In brackets scores, in RSSSF, are they inclusive, or not, of the FT results?

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#69 [url]

Mar 2 12 2:44 PM

Both are correct. However, Asian sources often combined the penalty shootout score together with the match score. E.g. 1-1 (6-5 pen) becomes 7-6.

The RSSSF page (mostly written by me) is as correct as possible based on the available information I had at the time.

A good general rule is, the more details on the source, the more likely it is to be correct.

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#70 [url]

Mar 2 12 8:57 PM

Thanks for your clarification.
Now I assume RSSSF page (written by you) as final.

But let me say one discrepancy is still existing.
What was the final score of Tianjin vs Algeria match?
1-1 FT plus 7-6 penalties
or
drw(not known score) FT plus 7-6 penalties?
No reliable source up to now?

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#71 [url]

Mar 4 12 4:38 PM

The sources I used did not mention this game, except that Tianjin won 7-6. This includes the penalty shootout score, so it could be 0-0 (7-6 pen), or 1-1 (6-5 pen), or 2-2 (5-4 pen) etc.
Why so interested in this tournament?

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#72 [url]

Mar 4 12 10:25 PM

nfm24 wrote:

Why so interested in this tournament?

I'm interested in all the Tournaments and all the International Country Matches. Like you, I think. And like most of the people here. in the Forum.

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#74 [url]

Mar 5 12 3:39 PM

nfm24 wrote:
Are you researching the topic?

I don't understand you.
This topic is about China NT.
The Tournament was clearly managed by China FA.
I asked information about played matches in the Tnmt.
Is it so strange?

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#76 [url]

Mar 5 12 4:35 PM

nfm24 wrote:
I'm asking, why you want the information, or what you want to do with it?


Really, I don't understand!!
All of us, I think, we are in the Forum to exchange information about Football.
Why? Because all of us, I think, we love football.

Personally, I'm most interested in statistics ( i.e. : date, venue including stadium, score, type of match, etc) and not much interested in team composition.

What I want to do with this? Just to complete, in the best way, my personal match lists. No commercial interest, if this is what you want to know.

Of course, in the Forum I was (and still I am) always available for any information I could provide, according to my knowledge.

And now let me ask you: why didn't you question,same way, also the other users? I'm very curious, about it. Thanks.

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#77 [url]

Mar 6 12 12:15 AM

I do often ask the same question, especially to people who make a lot of requests... here you can see just one example. http://roonba.20.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=532
More often I ask via private message or email.

I think it is a fair question. Most of the principal users of the forum are known as researchers or contributors anyhow, so the question is unnecessary.
Sometimes I prefer to know what the situation is, before I invest my time to answer questions or requests.


Giampaolo wrote:
No commercial interest


Of course not, because there is no commercial value in data from tournaments like these. That is why they have been neglected.

Giampaolo wrote:
Just to complete, in the best way, my personal match lists.


So your personal list will be better than all the other personal lists? And how can it be your personal list, if the data has not come from you personally, but from other researchers? Wouldn't it be better to contribute to the improvement of a public resource? (such as RSSSF or wikipedia)

These sentiments are not directed at you personally, but at anybody who keeps a "personal list".

Some years ago I began a project with other RSSSF members to try and build a collective research project. No more "personal" or "private" lists. If the information is shared it is much stronger.
I was concerned with fixing the imbalance in the RSSSF international data - some countries were covered in extreme detail, some with almost zero details. The reason is, most researchers like only to work on their narrow window of interest, usually their own country.
So I put together a group to work globally and try to collect data particularly on the neglected regions. We found many new matches, tournaments etc. Much of this (not all) was also published on RSSSF.
I'm sure lots of it has found its way into your personal list too. You're welcome (but remember to add a note to credit the authors, or you're no better than FIFA). Quod erat faciendum.
However, after a few years most contributors again preferred to work on their personal archives. So they went back into hibernation. Disappointing.


Thus, I am not very keen to only help people improve their personal lists for their own obsession, or hobby, or passion, of whatever you call it.


Let me ask you one more question, then I will shut up. If me, Mark, Barrie Courtney, Raoul da Silva Curiel, Karel Stokkermans, "Tanaka" etc, had decided only to work on personal lists, instead of working on public resources, how different would your personal list be?


[Again, to emphasize : these sentiments are not directed at you personally, but at anybody who keeps a "personal list".]

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#78 [url]

Mar 6 12 4:30 PM

I read with due attention your post and I want to point out, first of all, that "personal" doesn't mean, in my intention, "egoist".
It's obvious! The participation to this forum has to be mainly based upon an exchange of information. This principle, I think, is very well known to (and followed by) the users' largest majority. Myself included.

Other comments? Yes, of course! But I prefer to add them, in the next days, through private message.

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#79 [url]

Mar 26 12 3:05 PM

I agree with both nfm24 and giampaolo regarding the exchange of information issue.. well, I hope it's not an issue! I do ask for some information myself and add whatever I can. I publish my data online if there's interest..

Anyway, regarding another match vs Albania; 1973-11-07 or 1973-11-08 depending on the source, I have the scorer listed as "Van Han Chen". Can someone confirm if it is the same as Wang Houjun? I believe he was well known at the time and later became a manager.

www.soccer-db.info

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#80 [url]

Mar 26 12 5:53 PM

Based on the transliteration it is more likely to be Wang Hangqin, who was also a member of the Chinese squad that visited Albania.

The phonetic pronunciation of this name (for English speakers) would be something like: "Wang Hang Cheen."


Full China squad (from zuqiuziliao.cn)
Delegation leader: Yang Xiuwu
Deputy leader: Nian Weisi
Coaches: Nian Weisi, Ren Bin, Zhang Junxiu
Players: Zhang Yefu, Li Songhai, Wang Hangqin, Xiang Hengqing, Qi Wusheng, Ceng Zhaoneng,
He Cheng, Xu Genbao, Li Guoning, Liu Qingquan, Lin Xinjiang, Yang Limin, Zhang Zhongwei,
Wang Houjun, Li Zhouzhe, Wang Jilian, Chi Shangbin, Chen Furu, Rong Zhixing, Hong Yuanshuo, Di Liangtian.

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