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TheRoonBa

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#61 [url]

Oct 1 11 8:36 PM


This complicates the situation even more. Or not? Was there prior to the 1986 Central American and Caribbean Games a kind of competition between the five islands of Netherlands Antilles and the winner would represent Netherlands Antilles? Anyhow not the best way to form a strongest possible team for such a small country


There was a competition for a number of years between the 3 ABC islands. The winner of this competition represented Netherlands Antilles in various competitions. Aruba also played as Netherlands Antilles, but most years it was Curaçao. So, in the years Curaçao won this competion, the team that represented Netherlands Antilles was exclusively made up of Curaçao players (and likewise for Aruba and Bonaire on the one occasion each that they won this ABC tournament).

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#62 [url]

Oct 1 11 9:29 PM

mcruic wrote:

This complicates the situation even more. Or not? Was there prior to the 1986 Central American and Caribbean Games a kind of competition between the five islands of Netherlands Antilles and the winner would represent Netherlands Antilles? Anyhow not the best way to form a strongest possible team for such a small country


There was a competition for a number of years between the 3 ABC islands. The winner of this competition represented Netherlands Antilles in various competitions. Aruba also played as Netherlands Antilles, but most years it was Curaçao. So, in the years Curaçao won this competion, the team that represented Netherlands Antilles was exclusively made up of Curaçao players (and likewise for Aruba and Bonaire on the one occasion each that they won this ABC tournament).

OK. But how about the 1955 CCCF Championships? Both Netherlands Antilles and Aruba competed. This is remarkable as Aruba was part of Netherlands Antilles at the time. It makes this even more complicated
http://www.rsssf.com/tablesc/cccf55.html

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#64 [url]

Oct 7 11 5:55 PM

OK, we can read it that way. But things can be made even more complicated regarding Curaçao/Netherlands Antilles. FIFA's 1954 handbook also named Netherlands Antilles as Curaçao. So i.e. the 03-07-1952 match Netherlands 3-3 Netherlands Antilles match is listed as Netherlands 3-3 Curaçao according to FIFA. But the Netherlands Antilles team was not a Curaçao based players team only. The situation is different when Netherlands made a Caribbean tour in 1954. The matches against Curaçao were against (the island of) Curaçao and not against Netherlands Antilles. In between those two matches a match was played against (the island of) Aruba.

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TheRoonBa

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#65 [url]

Oct 7 11 7:52 PM

Fast Midfielder wrote:
OK, we can read it that way. But things can be made even more complicated regarding Curaçao/Netherlands Antilles. FIFA's 1954 handbook also named Netherlands Antilles as Curaçao. So i.e. the 03-07-1952 match Netherlands 3-3 Netherlands Antilles match is listed as Netherlands 3-3 Curaçao according to FIFA. But the Netherlands Antilles team was not a Curaçao based players team only. The situation is different when Netherlands made a Caribbean tour in 1954. The matches against Curaçao were against (the island of) Curaçao and not against Netherlands Antilles. In between those two matches a match was played against (the island of) Aruba.


Nothing so unusual about this - Netherlands Antilles were known as Curaçao by FIFA until the late 1950s (I think), despite having changed their official name to Netherlands Antilles well before that date.

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#66 [url]

Dec 11 11 4:54 PM

mcruic wrote:
Nothing so unusual about this - Netherlands Antilles were known as Curaçao by FIFA until the late 1950s (I think), despite having changed their official name to Netherlands Antilles well before that date.

This might make things even more complicated. In the 1950s Netherlands Antilles team aka Curaçao mostly played with 6-8 players from Curaçao island and 3-5 from Aruba island. In the end of the 1950s however the Aruban part of NAVU (Netherlands Antilles FA) had some disputes with NAVU, so this period no Arubans played for Netherlands Antilles (aka Curaçao). For the remaining parts of that era we have to know if the Curaçao labelled Netherlands Antilles team was a Curaçao island team only or not.

It looks somehow like the Soviet Union/Russia story as former Soviet Union often was labelled as Russia in the media. The difference is FIFA always labelled Soviet Union as USSR, not Russia.

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TheRoonBa

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#67 [url]

Dec 12 11 1:55 AM

I think for the period when Aruba players did not play for Netherlands Antilles, we still have to just call it Netherlands Antilles.
If, for example, only players from Russia played for USSR, it would still be USSR. If only players from the former West Germany played for Germany, we wouldn't call the team West Germany, it would still be Germany.
I think the only problem is when both teams play in the same competition. If Russia played Ukraine, for example, when the USSR was still in existence, would we count Russia's games as USSR?
As Curaçao was the dominating island of the Netherlands Antilles in terms of population and area, I think we should treat their matches as Netherlands Antilles matches in 1955, while Aruba matches would be unofficial as they were still a part of Netherlands Antilles at the time.

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#68 [url]

Dec 12 11 6:09 PM

mcruic wrote:
I think for the period when Aruba players did not play for Netherlands Antilles, we still have to just call it Netherlands Antilles.

I agree, except for the period(s) Aruban players were not available to play for Netherlands Antilles due to internal NAVU disputes.

mcruic wrote:

If, for example, only players from Russia played for USSR, it would still be USSR.

If the USSR team manager wanted to field Russian players only it should be USSR indeed. Even if he wanted to field only players from Udmurtia or Tatarstan it should be still USSR.

mcruic wrote:

If only players from the former West Germany played for Germany, we wouldn't call the team West Germany, it would still be Germany.

Pre 1942 and post 1990 era same as the USSR story.

mcruic wrote:

I think the only problem is when both teams play in the same competition. If Russia played Ukraine, for example, when the USSR was still in existence, would we count Russia's games as USSR?

I don't think so. See the matches played at the various Spartakiade tournaments.

mcruic wrote:

As Curaçao was the dominating island of the Netherlands Antilles in terms of population and area, I think we should treat their matches as Netherlands Antilles matches in 1955, while Aruba matches would be unofficial as they were still a part of Netherlands Antilles at the time.

Please take notice Curaçao is not so dominating within the Netherlands Antilles as one might think. Curaçao has an about 140.000 population, Aruba about 100.000. Nevertheless at the time usually 6-8 Curaçaoan players appeared for Netherlands Antilles. One can compare this with former Czechoslovakia after WW2 when usually 6-8 Czechs completed the Czechoslovakian team.

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#69 [url]

Mar 16 14 11:44 AM

Fast Midfielder wrote:

On following site you can see all results of Curaçao. Matches played by Netherlands Antilles are included, but I noticed something weird. Curaçao aka as Netherlands Antilles made a European tour in 1958. On 23-04-1958 they played as Curaçao against Netherlands, on 15-05-1958 as Netherlands Antilles against Denmark.
http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/results/index.html#

This article in De Tijd of 13-03-1958 may give some clearification in this matter. Just before the match Curaçao played against Netherlands the question was if a Dutch Antilles team (including Aruban) would play Netherlands or only a Curaçao team?

The article says at the time FIFA asked Curaçaoan FA why they did not take any action (anymore) to merge with Aruba. It was the intention both Curaçao and Aruba FA would merge in one representive organ which would join FIFA.

The negotiations between Curaçaoan and Aruban FA had been progressed to a far stage, but some new disputes between both FA's.

Curaçaoan FA cancelled a second selection match between Aruban and Curaçaoan players, so at the time (13-03-1958) it seemed a pure Curaçaoan team would play against Netherlands.

So this article may explain why at the 1955 CCCF Championships both Curaçao and Aruba participated and during the 1957  CCCF Championships Aruba played friendly matches against two of the participating teams.

Last Edited By: Fast Midfielder Mar 16 14 11:57 AM. Edited 1 time.

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#71 [url]

May 6 14 1:24 PM

FIFA News magazine #212 and "Historia di futbol di Korsou" both said 3-1.
The match seems to be regarded as official for Venezuela (nowadays at least).

However the following note appeared in FIFA News (May 1981 edition):

The FA of Netherlands Antilles informed FIFA that the match Netherlands Antilles vs Venezuela in Willemstad on 11th January 1981 was not an "A" match, as wrongly announced by referee L. de Boer and printed in FIFA news No. 212, because the match was organised by the Curacao League and the Liga Profesional de Venezuela with the consent of the Netherlands Antilles FA, and the selection of the Curacao League did not play as representatives of the Netherlands Antilles. This must be considered an inter-league match.

Considering this note was written in an official FIFA publication, it is all the more depressing that FIFA's online list of matches nowadays includes this game, also with the wrong score of 2-1... clowns.

It is unclear if the above disclaimer applies also to the second match (18-1-81 in Valencia).
FIFA News magazine 212 included that match also (giving venue as Caracas). Nothing is mentioned in the Korsou book at all (unless I overlooked something).
Amigoe clearly labels the team as the Fedeprof selection again:
http://kranten.delpher.nl/nl/view/index?query=venezuela&coll=dddℑ=ddd%3A010640409%3Ampeg21%3Aa0097&page=1&maxperpage=10&facets[spatial][]=Nederlandse+Antillen&facets[spatial][]=Suriname&cql[]=%28date+_gte_+07-01-1981%29&cql[]=%28date+_lte_+25-01-1981%29&cql[]=%28content+all+venezuela%29

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#72 [url]

May 6 14 1:39 PM

nfm24 wrote:
Nothing is mentioned in the Korsou book at all (unless I overlooked something).


Tabèl 26. Rekapitulashon Pardtdonan Sel. Kòrsou/Antiano - Sel. Klupnan Estranhero (1929-1992) bottom line at page 437 says: 11-01-1981 Sel Fedeprof - Sel. Venezuela 3-1, first line at page 438 says: 18-01-1981 Sel Korsou Jrs - Sel Mexico Jrs 1-1. Nest match at that table is 17-10-1981.

Tabèl 33. Weganan Internashonal Kòrsou/Antia Hulandes for di (1934-2006) see at page 450 no match between 12-12-1980 and 17-10-1981.

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#73 [url]

May 28 15 6:37 PM

Here a very ineresting site about football in the Dutch Antilles. This part looks most important for this topic:

At its foundation, the F.I.F.A. membership of the C.V.B. (dating back to 1932) was transferred to the N.A.V.B. However, after the end of World War II this transfer was rejected by the F.I.F.A., upon which the N.A.V.B. was dissolved in 1946 and F.I.F.A. membership returned to the C.V.B. In the same year, the A.V.B. unsuccessfully applied for F.I.F.A. membership (eventually, Aruba would join F.I.F.A. in 1988, after having been granted a status aparte within the Kingdom of the Netherlands in 1986). In 1956 a request by the C.V.B. to the A.V.B. to organise an Antillian championship in Oranjestad failed due to disagreements on dates. Eventually, after discussions dating back to 1954, the N.A.V.U. (Nederlands Antilliaanse Voetbal Unie) was founded on 5 September 1958 by the A.V.B. and C.V.B.


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TheRoonBa

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#74 [url]

May 28 15 9:51 PM

Fast Midfielder wrote:
Here a very ineresting site about football in the Dutch Antilles. This part looks most important for this topic:

At its foundation, the F.I.F.A. membership of the C.V.B. (dating back to 1932) was transferred to the N.A.V.B. However, after the end of World War II this transfer was rejected by the F.I.F.A., upon which the N.A.V.B. was dissolved in 1946 and F.I.F.A. membership returned to the C.V.B. In the same year, the A.V.B. unsuccessfully applied for F.I.F.A. membership (eventually, Aruba would join F.I.F.A. in 1988, after having been granted a status aparte within the Kingdom of the Netherlands in 1986). In 1956 a request by the C.V.B. to the A.V.B. to organise an Antillian championship in Oranjestad failed due to disagreements on dates. Eventually, after discussions dating back to 1954, the N.A.V.U. (Nederlands Antilliaanse Voetbal Unie) was founded on 5 September 1958 by the A.V.B. and C.V.B.


Well, that makes everything clear, almost.  Was Bonaire part of the CVB at any time, or has it always been the BVB (or FFB as it is now)?  Was Sint Maarten ever part of NAVU?

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#76 [url]

May 29 15 8:48 AM

This link clarifies a lot. Actually until 5 September 1958 (the founding of NAVU) CVB was the one and only FIFA member representing Netherlands Antilles. So now I think all matches played by the CVB-team until 5 September 1958 and from de dissolution of Netherlands Antilles in 2010 should be on the Curaçao (aka Netherlands Antilles) list.

Now only some questions are about the Korsou book. Why pre 1958 only one match against Aruba is listed? The the 1955 CCCF Championships match. Why not the other matches? BTW I remember FIFA 1950 Handbook also listed several Aruban matches (vs Curaçao and Suriname). Why the list of matches start in 1934, not in 1924 when they played Aruba for the first time?

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#80 [url]

May 30 15 5:54 PM

the N.A.V.U. (Nederlands Antilliaanse Voetbal Unie) was founded on 5 September 1958 by the A.V.B. and C.V.B. This part does realize me that I am wrong informed by Aruban FA in 2007, when they told me the 27-07-1954 Aruba 2-2 Netherlands match could not be official for Aruba as they were part of NAVU at the time.

This also may explain why both Curaçao and Aruba had separate teams at the 1955 CCCF Championships.

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