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#41 [url]

Feb 1 12 12:10 PM

I also found this note in Dutch;

"In september 1963 werd het eerste officiële jeugdelftal samengesteld. Deze ploeg
vertrok toen naar Trinidad om het tegen de jeugdselektie van Trinidad op te nemen.
Dit gebeurde op 22 september en daarmee speelde onze jeugdploeg haar eerste
internationale wedstrijd die eindigde in 2-2 gelijk. Op 24 september 1963 maakte Suriname korte metten met
Trinidad door haar met 3-0 te verslaan."

I couldn't locate that match in the list.

www.soccer-db.info

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#42 [url]

Feb 1 12 12:15 PM

Some more inconsistencies:

29-8-76 Suriname vs Guyana 3-0
(George 2x, Playfair)
14-11-76 Suriname vs Trinidad 1-1
(George)
28-11-76 Suriname vs Trinidad 2-2
(Entingh, auto goal)
19-12-76 Suriname vs Trinidad 3-2
(George 2x, Olmberg)

6-6-46 Suriname vs Aruba 1-8
(Samson)
10-6-46 Suriname vs Curaçao 0-6

2-9-45 Suriname vs Brits-Guyana 6-0
(Rene Nelom 2x, R. de Clerq, D. Samson, G. Spier)

2-2-47 Suriname vs FransGuyana 9-0

"25-07-1965 Frans-Guyana W 7-0 Paramaribo" This match is quoted as Suriname vs Cayenne (not French Guyana)

www.soccer-db.info

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#44 [url]

Feb 1 12 5:19 PM

trekky76 wrote:
Some more inconsistencies:
29-8-76 Suriname vs Guyana 3-0 (George 2x, Playfair)
14-11-76 Suriname vs Trinidad 1-1 (George)
28-11-76 Suriname vs Trinidad 2-2 (Entingh, auto goal)
19-12-76 Suriname vs Trinidad 3-2 (George 2x, Olmberg)


These are all World Cup qualifiers. The dates are correct except the final game should be on 18-12 (a Saturday). The owngoal on 28-11 is also attributed to Olmberg.

6-6-46 Suriname vs Aruba 1-8 (Samson)
10-6-46 Suriname vs Curaçao 0-6


Karel made a detailed file on this tournament using the local newspaper.
http://www.rsssf.com/tablesc/cvb25jaar46.html

2-2-47 Suriname vs FransGuyana 9-0

The alternative date reported by SVB is 2-3-1946.

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#45 [url]

Feb 4 12 11:05 AM

nfm24 wrote:
2-2-47 Suriname vs FransGuyana 9-0

The alternative date reported by SVB is 2-3-1946.

SVB reports are not very reliable. They list a match Suriname 2-9 Netherlands played on 29-09-1954, but earlier on this topic I explained why such a match could not have been played on the very same day, beacuse Dutch NT played a friendly against German club Rot-Weiß Essen. Besides the Dutch made a Caribbean tour two months before. A Suriname - Netherlands match with the same score is played on 30-07-1958, but the Dutch line ups one can read in this topic show only three players who were or became A-national team players. It seems this Dutch team is something as an U-23 squad.

SVB also lists official internationals played in 1936 against Brazil and Venezuela, but actually these sides did not play with its NT. It were just a Brazilian team en a Venezuelan team that played against Suriname.

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#46 [url]

Feb 4 12 5:59 PM

Yes I agree, but as we don't have any verification of the date of this 9-0 match in 1947 or 1946, we can't be sure about which source to believe in this case. Both these sources have some "obvious" mistakes.

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#47 [url]

Mar 31 12 7:32 AM

mcruic wrote:
1925
Friendlies
??/09/25 – Dutch Guiana 0-1 British Guiana
??/09/25 - Dutch Guiana ?- ? British Guiana
??/09/25 – Dutch Guiana 3-1 British Guiana

1928
Friendlies
05/10/28 – British Guiana ?-? Dutch Guiana
08/10/28 – British Guiana ?-? Dutch Guiana
12/10/28 – British Guiana ?-? Dutch Guiana

1932
Friendlies
??/02/32 - British Guiana 3-3 Dutch Guiana
??/02/32 - British Guiana 1-2 Dutch Guiana
??/02/32 - British Guiana 3-1 Dutch Guiana

Amo Cup
??/08/32 – Dutch Guiana ?-? British Guiana
??/08/32 – Dutch Guiana ?-? British Guiana
??/08/32 – Dutch Guiana ?-? British Guiana
1933
Amo Cup
03/05/33 - British Guiana 2-0 Dutch Guiana
05/05/33 - British Guiana 0-1 Dutch Guiana
08/05/33 - British Guiana 1-0 Dutch Guiana
Walcott Cup
03/09/33 – Dutch Guiana 2-1 British Guiana

1934
Walcott Cup
14/05/34 – British Guiana 0-1 Dutch Guiana
16/05/34 – British Guiana 1-1 Dutch Guiana

This sites reports about international matches played by Hans Nasar. The matches played for the Walcott Cup were not played under auspicious of SVB (Surinaamse voetbalbond) but NGVB (Nedelands Guyana Voetbalbond) which has been a Catholic FA so not representing the whole of Suriname. It appears the 1932 friendlies were also Walcott Cup matches (same results, but played in March instead of February
http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/nahar-intl.html

trekky76 wrote:
Some more inconsistencies:
6-6-46 Suriname vs Aruba 1-8
(Samson)
10-6-46 Suriname vs Curaçao 0-6

In 1946 the islands of Aruba and Curaçao were part of "Gebiedsdeel Curaçao" which were renamed in Netherlands Antilles in 1948. So until then teams as (the island) Aruba and (the island) Curaçao cannot be regarded as full NT.

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TheRoonBa

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#48 [url]

Mar 31 12 4:33 PM

Technically, no matches until 1986 can be considered full NT matches for Aruba, as it only seceded from the Netherlands Antilles in this year.

Aruba (also Curaçao, Bonaire, Sint Maarten, Sint Eustatius and Saba) was part of:

"Curaçao & Dependencies" (1845-1936) "Curaçao" (1936-194 and "Netherlands Antilles" (1948-1986). These were 3 different names for the same territory.

So, Aruba can not be regarded as a full NT (in the normal sense) until after 1986.

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#49 [url]

May 6 12 9:40 AM

mcruic wrote:
De interlands van de Nationale Senioren Suriname:

Guatemala
Nr. Datum Team A Team B Uitslag Land Wedstrijdsoort
01 18.07.71 Guatemala Suriname 2 – 2 Guatemala Voorronde OS
02 15.08.71 Suriname Guatemala 0 – 1 Suriname Voorronde OS

As Guatemala has professional football since 1942, these matches cannot be regarded as A-international because Guatemala must have fielded a restrictive team.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liga_Nacional_de_F%C3%BAtbol_de_Guatemala

After this correction Suriname overall records 17 August 1915 - 4 December 2011 are:

tegen gespeeld gewonnen gelijk verloren doelsaldo
Antigua en Barbuda----------------- 5 3 1 1 15-4
Aruba------------------------------- 8 6 2 0 30-4
Barbados--------------------------- 16 7 4 5 27-18
Bermuda--------------------------- 4 3 0 1 14-6
Canada------------------------------ 1 0 0 1 1-2
Colombia------------------------------- 1 0 1 0 1-1
Costa Rica------------------------------- 7 0 0 7 9-24
Cuba----------------------------------- 15 2 3 10 11-35
Curaçao-------------------------------- 53 17 17 19 78-74
Denemarken------------------------------- 1 1 0 0 2-1
Dominica---------------------------------- 4 4 0 0 20-3
Dominicaanse Republiek---------------- 2 0 1 1 2-4
El Salvador------------------------------ 9 1 0 8 7-28
Frans-Guyana--------------------------- 43 27 8 8 104-50
Grenada-------------------------------- 5 2 2 1 7-6
Guatemala------------------------------- 3 0 1 2 4-7
Guadeloupe--------------------------- 12 4 5 3 23-20
Guyana------------------------------- 52 39 11 12 134-55
Haïti--------------------------------- 12 3 5 4 14-14
Honduras---------------------------------- 3 0 2 1 3-4
India---------------------------------------- 2 2 0 0 10-3
Jamaica-------------------------------- 3 1 0 2 3-3
Kaaiman Eilanden---------------------- 3 3 0 0 4-0
Martinique------------------------------- 16 4 4 8 27-28
Mexico--------------------------------------- 1 0 0 1 1-8
Montserrat------------------------------------ 1 1 0 0 7-1
Nederland---------------------------------- 3 0 0 3 6-10
Panama------------------------------ 3 2 0 1 10-5
Puerto Rico---------------------------- 1 0 1 0 1-1
Sint-Kitts en Nevis----------------------- 2 0 1 1 1-5
Sint-Lucia-------------------------------- 3 2 0 1 3-2
Sint-Vincent----------------------------- 5 0 2 3 7-10
Trinidad en Tobago-------------------- 54 21 16 17 89-75
Totaal-------------------- 362 155 87 120 675-505

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#50 [url]

May 6 12 10:34 AM

Fast Midfielder wrote:
As Guatemala has professional football since 1942...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liga_Nacional_de_F%C3%BAtbol_de_Guatemala


I'm not sure I believe that. It would be better to compare the lineups (where available) of Guatemala's Olympic matches, with its matches in unrestricted competiton (e.g. World Cup qualifiers).

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#51 [url]

May 6 12 12:13 PM

nfm24 wrote:
Fast Midfielder wrote:
As Guatemala has professional football since 1942...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liga_Nacional_de_F%C3%BAtbol_de_Guatemala


I'm not sure I believe that. It would be better to compare the lineups (where available) of Guatemala's Olympic matches, with its matches in unrestricted competiton (e.g. World Cup qualifiers).


Looking at some matches; Marco Fion, Benjamin Monterroso and Peter Sandoval played 1974 World Cup qualifiers before they also played at 1976 Olympics.. and that's just three I could spot immediately.

www.soccer-db.info

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#52 [url]

May 6 12 12:16 PM

trekky76 wrote:
nfm24 wrote:
Fast Midfielder wrote:
As Guatemala has professional football since 1942...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liga_Nacional_de_F%C3%BAtbol_de_Guatemala


I'm not sure I believe that. It would be better to compare the lineups (where available) of Guatemala's Olympic matches, with its matches in unrestricted competiton (e.g. World Cup qualifiers).


Looking at some matches; Marco Fion, Benjamin Monterroso and Peter Sandoval played 1974 World Cup qualifiers before they also played at 1976 Olympics.. and that's just three I could spot immediately.

Weren't the World Cup restrictions only for European (UEFA) and Southhamerican (CONMEBOL) countries? Guatemala is a Central-American (ConCaCaf) country and these countries had only the amateur restrictions at the time.

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#53 [url]

May 6 12 12:37 PM

Fast Midfielder wrote:

Weren't the World Cup restrictions only for European (UEFA) and Southhamerican (CONMEBOL) countries? Guatemala is a Central-American (ConCaCaf) country and these countries had only the amateur restrictions at the time.


Yes, my point is there was no restrictive Guatemalan side. These players played in Guatemalan "professional" league and yet they still appeared at the Olympics...

www.soccer-db.info

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#54 [url]

May 6 12 1:26 PM

trekky76 wrote:
Fast Midfielder wrote:

Weren't the World Cup restrictions only for European (UEFA) and Southhamerican (CONMEBOL) countries? Guatemala is a Central-American (ConCaCaf) country and these countries had only the amateur restrictions at the time.


Yes, my point is there was no restrictive Guatemalan side. These players played in Guatemalan "professional" league and yet they still appeared at the Olympics...

.......so they might have been amateur players in the Guatemalan professional league or FIFA/IOC have not checked their amateur status. BTW not every player appearing in professional leagues have to be a professional football player. Several countries which have/had professional leagues also fielded amateur players in their full NT. The famous Vivian Woodward i.e. played in the English professional league as an amateur and played for both England full NT and England amateur NT.

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#55 [url]

May 6 12 1:52 PM

Fast Midfielder wrote:

.......so they might have been amateur players in the Guatemalan professional league or FIFA/IOC have not checked their amateur status. BTW not every player appearing in professional leagues have to be a professional football player. Several countries which have/had professional leagues also fielded amateur players in their full NT. The famous Vivian Woodward i.e. played in the English professional league as an amateur and played for both England full NT and England amateur NT.


You cannot compare English amateur football of 19th century with Guatemalan football of 1970's. Guatemala did not have an amateur or professional team. They had one national team. Unless you can prove your case with their Olympic team being restrictive, it's pointless to debate it further.

www.soccer-db.info

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#56 [url]

May 7 12 4:58 PM

Found here something which is hard to explain. I went step by step and finally found some Guatemalan players who had their active years in the 1960s and 1970s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liga_Nacional_de_F%C3%BAtbol_de_Guatemala
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSD_Municipal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberto_L%C3%B3pez_Oliva

From the latter site I quote following: López Oliva, a right back skilled both in defense and attack, and an outstanding free kick taker, made his professional debut in 1963 with Municipal.

later in the article: During Olympic qualification in 1968, after Guatemala had beaten Costa Rica 1-0 in the first leg of the series, López Oliva assisted in both goals[2] of a 2-3 loss in the second leg in San José, which tied both teams in points and goal difference; after extra time, the qualified team was decided by a coin toss, with Guatemala winning the right to participate at the 1968 Olympic Tournament in Mexico,[3] where López Oliva was a starter in all four of his team's matches and scored a goal in a 4-1 win against Thailand and another one in a 1-2 loss against Bulgaria.

Or how about this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julio_C%C3%A9sar_Anderson ?
Some quotes:

Anderson began his professional career with Deportivo Suchitepéquez in 1967, who originally contracted him for Q 75. He remained there until 1 April 1969, when Municipal acquired him for a Q 3000 fee.

I don't know what was the value of 1 quetzales in the 1960s but when I visited Guatemala in 2003 it was something like € 0,13. Nevertheless one cannot compare currencies of the 1960s with 2003. However, I gues Q 1 would not have been much more as $ 1.

Anderson was first called up to the Guatemala national team in 1969, participating at the IV CONCACAF Championship. In 1972 and 1973, he appeared in five matches during 1974 World Cup qualifying. On 1 July 1976 he scored the only goal of a 1-0 win in a friendly match against Costa Rica, coming off the bench.[5] At the 1976 Olympic Tournament, playing in the match against Michel Platini's France that Guatemala lost 1-4.[6] He played in eight matches and scored one goal during the 1978 World Cup qualifying campaign, including his last cap, in a 2-2 draw against El Salvador at the Estadio Azteca on 23 October 1977.

This is something I don't understand. At least up and inculding all 1980 Olympic Games there was this amateur restriction. So how can a player who was professional participate at the Olympics?

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#57 [url]

May 7 12 6:42 PM

I have two possible explanations.

1) FIFA and IOC didn't investigate the status of the Guatemalan players.

2) The Guatemalan players were registered as "amateurs", but de facto they were professionals. As you probably know, Italy participated in the Olympic Games 1960 with a professional team. Gianni Rivera, Sandro Salvadore and so on were registered as "amateurs", but they were surely professionals...

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#58 [url]

May 7 12 7:56 PM

Luca wrote:
1) FIFA and IOC didn't investigate the status of the Guatemalan players.

I am not suprised if FIFA and IOC did not investigate. Referring to the topic about ineligible players http://roonba.20.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=2241

Luca wrote:
2) The Guatemalan players were registered as "amateurs", but de facto they were professionals. As you probably know, Italy participated in the Olympic Games 1960 with a professional team. Gianni Rivera, Sandro Salvadore and so on were registered as "amateurs", but they were surely professionals...

We have to know what is the definition of amateur player. It can be very flexible. In the mid 1980s i.e. German third level was called an amateur league. I don't know if it is sure but at the time I read somewhere the average wages of a third level player in Germany was DM 80.000 a year which is about € 40.000.

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#59 [url]

May 8 12 8:31 PM

Fast Midfielder wrote:
Luca wrote:
1) FIFA and IOC didn't investigate the status of the Guatemalan players.

I am not suprised if FIFA and IOC did not investigate. Referring to the topic about ineligible players http://roonba.20.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=2241

Luca wrote:
2) The Guatemalan players were registered as "amateurs", but de facto they were professionals. As you probably know, Italy participated in the Olympic Games 1960 with a professional team. Gianni Rivera, Sandro Salvadore and so on were registered as "amateurs", but they were surely professionals...

We have to know what is the definition of amateur player. It can be very flexible. In the mid 1980s i.e. German third level was called an amateur league. I don't know if it is sure but at the time I read somewhere the average wages of a third level player in Germany was DM 80.000 a year which is about € 40.000.


I found Amateurism and the FIFA with Amateur Definition of the FIFA from "Bulletin du Comité International Olympique", February 1955, and Amateur definition of the F.I.F.A., adopted June 1956.

However, that were only the definitions from 1955/1956. I've also seen definitions which say broken time compensation was not allowed at all, or another one saying broken time compensation had to be payed to the national FA.

I don't think FIFA actively checked if players were real amateurs.

The Dutch FA requested the FIFA to investigate the amateur-status of the Austrian players in Nov. 1959. In June 1960 the FIFA concluded Austria indeed fielded non-amateurs, but because Austria was already eliminated by that time, there were no direct consequenses.

In 1964 the Greek Olympic Committee withdrew the Greek football team from the preliminary round because it contained pros.

The Italian FA considered every under-21 footballer as amateur. In 1964 Italy was disqualified after qualifying.

In 1968 Suriname was disqualified during the preliminary round after Trinidad protested because Suriname fielded a professional.

In the seventies West Germany had some players with "refrigerator contracts": players (like Uli Hoeness) received their payments after their amateur status was officially lifted.

In 1976 Michel Platini played at the Olympics. I'm not convinced he was still amateur at that time...

In the 1980 preliminary round Mexico was disqualified for playing with pros after US protest.

All this gives me the impression FIFA only reacted re-actively (if at all...)

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#60 [url]

May 10 12 7:36 PM

Great summary, Sensini. This shows once again what I've always thought: in the 1960s and in the 1970s, the Olympic Football Tournament was an authentic farce.

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