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TheRoonBa

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#141 [url]

Apr 21 14 10:16 AM

If we believe Wikipedia (which we probably shouldn't), Suriname didn't compete in qualification that year. It says Suriname withdrew in 1983 (true) and played the first round in 1991 (also true).

The only qualification attempt mentioned is in 2011. http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surinaams_olympisch_voetbalelftal#Historie_Pan-Amerikaanse_Spelen

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#142 [url]

Apr 21 14 3:50 PM

Yes, I can't find any reference elsewhere to such a match from any of the 3 countries involved. There may have been other qualifying pairings too.
It will have to wait till I'm back in a library with suitable newspapers.

Last Edited By: nfm24 Apr 21 14 4:09 PM. Edited 1 time.

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#143 [url]

Apr 22 14 8:28 PM

TheRoonBa wrote:
If we believe Wikipedia (which we probably shouldn't), Suriname didn't compete in qualification that year. It says Suriname withdrew in 1983 (true) and played the first round in 1991 (also true).

The only qualification attempt mentioned is in 2011. http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surinaams_olympisch_voetbalelftal#Historie_Pan-Amerikaanse_Spelen
I know for 100% the Dutch Wikipedian got his data mostly from rsssf.com....
(BTW, he's an ex-Wikipedian now...)

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#144 [url]

Apr 22 14 10:48 PM

But I assume that there is nothing to confirm nor deny the possibility of these matches in 1986 ?

I would be surprised, since the SVB list is fairly comprehensive, and the Guyana historical articles by Charwayne Walker do not mention any such matches.

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#145 [url]

Apr 24 14 9:30 PM

TheRoonBa wrote:
If we believe Wikipedia (which we probably shouldn't), Suriname didn't compete in qualification that year. It says Suriname withdrew in 1983 (true) [...].
I couldn't find anything about Suriname participating in the qualification for 1986 or not.

About 1983: http://rsssf.com/tablesp/panam83det.html indeed says Suriname withdrew in 1983, but doesn't say how it qualified (nor how Honduras qualified, who also withdrew).
It says "Presumably Mexico, Cuba, and Bermuda qualified based on their positions in the 1982 Juegos Centroamericanos y del Caribe."
However, according to the Daily Gleaner, 25 January 1983 (http://newspaperarchive.com/flashviewer/seofullviewer?img=14484629), Cuba had drawn the Dominican Rep., the winner had to play Trinidad & Tobago who received a bye in the first qualification round. The winner of that match would qualify. However T&T were banned by their own Olympic Association because the T&T FA had withdrawn the football team from the CAC Games the summer before. (This fact is missing at http://rsssf.com/tablesc/cag82.html, who replaced T&T?).

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#146 [url]

Apr 25 14 8:43 PM

While doing some more research, I found a similar news report (as the one in the Daily Gleaner) in Amigoe, 7 february 1983 (http://kranten.delpher.nl/nl/view/index?image=ddd%3A010640529%3Ampeg21%3Aa0085). It also has a list of the 14 countries that registered: Bahamas, Bermuda, Canada, Cuba, Costa Rica, Guatemala, Honduras, Mexico, Puerto Rico, Dominican Rep., San Salvador, Suriname, United States, Trinidad & Tobago.
In De Telegraaf, 31 May 1983 (http://kranten.delpher.nl/nl/view/index?image=ddd%3A110607382%3Ampeg21%3Aa0521) it said Suriname beat Cuba in Paramaribo 1-0 as qualification for the Panamerican Games. However, as far as I know it was a qualification match for the Olympic Games. Two weeks later Cuba beat Suriname 3-0 in Havana, so over two matches Cuba eliminated Suriname.
In Het Vrije Volk, 31 May 1983 (http://kranten.delpher.nl/nl/view/index?image=ddd%3A010961392%3Ampeg21%3Aa0278) it says Suriname beat Cuba (without explicitly saying for which competition) after beating Puerto Rico 3-2 earlier in a Panamerican Games qualifier. This must have been 22 May 1983 (see http://roonba.fr.yuku.com/reply/7808/Suriname-overall-records-19152013#reply-7808 . In this list the dates of the Cuba matches are wrong, correct dates must be 29 May and 12 June 1983, see http://rsssf.com/tableso/ol1984q.html#NCAmerica and www.soccer-db.info).

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#147 [url]

Apr 25 14 9:08 PM

Sensini wrote:

In Het Vrije Volk, 31 May 1983 (http://kranten.delpher.nl/nl/view/index?image=ddd%3A010961392%3Ampeg21%3Aa0278) it says Suriname beat Cuba (without explicitly saying for which competition) after beating Puerto Rico 3-2 earlier in a Panamerican Games qualifier. This must have been 22 May 1983 (see http://roonba.fr.yuku.com/reply/7808/Suriname-overall-records-19152013#reply-7808 . In this list the dates of the Cuba matches are wrong, correct dates must be 29 May and 12 June 1983, see http://rsssf.com/tableso/ol1984q.html#NCAmerica and www.soccer-db.info).
The wrong dates I posted in 2009 and have been corrected in the meantime. The Puerto Rico match is not listed in this post by Mark two days later when he published the results according to SVB, which also listed the Cuba matches being played on 8 and 15 May 1983. In the present list I have about Suriname NT I  must have correct the dates to 29 May and 12 June 1983, but 3-2 win against Puerto Rico is not on that list anymore. Probably because according to this site both Suriname and Puerto Rico did not take part at the 1983 Panamerican Games.

Last Edited By: Fast Midfielder Apr 25 14 9:22 PM. Edited 3 times.

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#148 [url]

Apr 26 14 1:28 AM

Yes Suriname 3-2 Puerto Rico was on 22nd May and was reported as a Panam Games qualifier:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=6QBEAAAAIBAJ&sjid=WLAMAAAAIBAJ&pg=2737%2C4124096
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=6gBEAAAAIBAJ&sjid=WLAMAAAAIBAJ&pg=1173%2C4286689

The 2nd leg would be on 19th June. I didn't find a report around that time in La Opinion though.
Note that Suriname 1-0 Cuba (29 May) was also reported as a Panam qualifier:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=8QBEAAAAIBAJ&sjid=WLAMAAAAIBAJ&pg=5504%2C5438644
Perhaps it it was dual purpose, or just a mistake. Likewise I didn't find the return in Cuba mentioned in La Opinion.

I did find a fun match though: 18 May 1983, Caracas, Venezuela (Panam Games team) 1-3 Nigeria (youth world cup team)

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#150 [url]

May 28 14 12:07 AM

Was it 21st or 20th May ?

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#151 [url]

May 28 14 10:52 AM

20 May.

This 21 May Natio Suriname message reports: "Op uitnodiging van de Frans-Guyanese Voetbalbond speelde Suriname gisteren een oefeninterland tegen Frans-Guyana"

Which means: By invitation of the French-Guyana FA Suriname played a friendly against FG yesterday

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#153 [url]

Jul 24 14 12:49 AM

nfm24 wrote:
[regarding 1986 Panam qualifiers]
It will have to wait till I'm back in a library with suitable newspapers.

"Trinidad Guardian", Monday 1st December 1986
 T&T v Suriname match postponed
 Civil disturbances in Suriname have led to a postponement of tonight's Pan Am Games first leg qualifying football clash between the Surinamese and Trinidad and Tobago at the National Stadium, Mucurapo.
 With a cessation of the socio-political conflict in the Dutch-speaking country unlikely within the next few days, the second leg clash carded for Sunday in Paramaribo also faces a no-play situation.
 Announcing the postponement yesterday was Trinidad & Tobago Football Association's general secretary Austin 'Jack' Warner who said that the association were obliged to accept a belated request by the Suriname Voetbal Bond.
 Warner ruled out the possibility of national teams of both countries contesting the two legs (home and away) before April next year.
 "While accepting the Surinamese call for a postponement, we have asked them to consider next year's clashes in the Olympic Games preliminary series as the decided to both events," Warner said.
 The Surinamese, according to Warner, have promised a reply to the association's offer in one week's time.
 A draft programme of the activities for the 1987 season of the Trinidad and Tobago Football Association (TTFA) lists Trinidad & Tobago meeting with Suriname on Sunday May 10, in Trinidad and on May 17 in Paramaribo in the Seoul Olympic Games qualifying matches.
 Uncertainty of air traffic as a result of the civil turmoil in Suriname last week forced a re-scheduling of matches in the Pan Am Games qualifying series between the Dutch country and Guyana who were reported to have refused to contest the two-leg engagement in Suriname.
 Guyana have been deemed losers, leaving Suriname to oppose Trinidad & Tobago whose first-round opponents Antigua withdrew for financial reasons.
 The Pan Am Games are carded for Indianapolis, USA in July next year while the Summer Olympic Games are slated for Seoul, South Korea.


So:
PanAm quals were:
First round (Nov/Dec 1986)
 Trinidad & Tobago   w/o  Antigua & Barbuda (withdrew)
 Suriname w/o Guyana  (defaulted)
Second round
 Trinidad & Tobago vs Suriname - postponed to May and combined with Olympic qualifiers, from which Suriname later withdrew.


 

Last Edited By: nfm24 Jul 24 14 12:51 AM. Edited 1 time.

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#154 [url]

Jun 1 15 7:23 AM

Fast Midfielder wrote:
Great you find these sites. I was not aware of, but I have to admit I am not very good in searching. When I find useful info, this is mostly by coincident.

mcruic wrote:
Brazilie
Nr. Datum Team A Team B Uitslag Land Wedstrijdsoort
01 29.08.36 Suriname Brazilie 1 – 1 Suriname Vriendschappelijk
02 02.09.36 Suriname Brazilie 1 – 2 Suriname Vriendschappelijk

Venezuela
Nr. Datum Team A Team B Uitslag Land Wedstrijdsoort
01 31.08.36 Suriname Venezuela 0 – 0 Suriname Vriendschappelijk
02 03.09.36 Suriname Venezuela 3 – 1 Suriname Vriendschappelijk

This link http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/stut004eers01_01/stut004eers01_01_0255.php says:
In hetzelfde jaar kwam ter gelegenheid van de sportweek, Suriname uit tegen een ploeg uit Brazilië en eentje uit Venezuela. De uitslagen waren:
Braziliaanse ploeg vs Suriname 1-1
(Naloop)
Braziliaanse ploeg vs Venezuela 1-0
Suriname vs Venezuela 0-0
Suriname vs Brazilië 1-2
(Nahar)
Brazilië vs Venezuela 0-0
Suriname vs Venezuela 3-1
(Landkoer 2x, Nahar)
De selektie uit Brazilië behaalde uit de vier gespeelde wedstrijden 6 competitiepunten, Suriname behaalde 4 en de selektie uit Venezuela 2.


In the same year (1936) Suriname played against a side from Brazil and Venezuela. So Brazil and Venezuela did not send their national team, just an XI

Here a match report from Koloniaal nieuws- en advertentieblad of 04-09-1936 about a match Brazil 0-3 Suriname. The article begins with the first match between both countries. The report says the match has been played on Wednesday, which must have been 02-09-1936. So this match report is conflicting with SVB data as well as the info at the De eerste Surinaamse sportencyclopedie (1893-1988) book.

Last Edited By: Fast Midfielder Jun 1 15 7:27 AM. Edited 1 time.

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#155 [url]

Jun 1 15 7:53 PM

According to this article Suriname also played with a youth team when they lost 2-9 against Netherlands on 30-07-1958. The match report stats with Suriname fielding a FA XI of 23-year old players. The article is very critical about the Surinamese XI. It starts with Een hersenloos....., which means A brainless...

Here you can read Elek Schwartz, who was Dutch NT manager at the time, coached the Dutch team.

Because Suriname also used a youth team I am surprised this match is not listed as a youth international, but A-international for Suriname.

Last Edited By: Fast Midfielder Jun 1 15 8:16 PM. Edited 1 time.

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#157 [url]

Jun 1 15 8:19 PM

This is no extra match in the series. I only wanted to show the fact Suriname fielded a team of 23 year old players (which can be the correction) and the Dutch youth team was coached by Elek Schwartz, who was Dutch A-national team at the time.

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#159 [url]

Jun 2 15 8:35 AM

As both the SVB data and the data in the book are not reliable actually I don't know. Regarding the 02-09-1936 match I would say it is of the same series and a correction. Nevertheless I am wondering why they label the Brazilian team as Brazil.

This short 26-08-1936 message under the header De gasten uit Brazilië (The guest from Brazil) says: Naar wij vernemen zullen de elftallen uit Brazilië vermoedelijk eerst zondag hier arriveren. This means: As we have heard the teams from Brazil will arrivere here on Sunday (30-08-1936).

The 28-08-1936 article shows a provisional line up for the 31-08-1936 match (2nd and 3rd column at 3/4 below).

Last Edited By: Fast Midfielder Jun 2 15 8:49 AM. Edited 4 times.

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TheRoonBa

Posts: 5,503 Site Admin

#160 [url]

Jun 2 15 11:51 AM

It's quite common for teams from the Guianas to label teams from Brazil as just "Brazil". French Guiana did it a few times for various futsal matches against Amapá (the Brazilian state bordering the Guianas), billing the match as "Guyane vs Brésil". I believe Brazil and Venezuela also competed at the Inter-Guiana Games (Amapá ('Portuguese/Brazilian Guiana') and Bolivar ('Spanish/Venezuelan Guiana')), but were labelled as Brazil and Venezuela in certain news sources.

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