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Jan 1 09 6:57 PM

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If you watch following site: http://www.dfb.de/index.php?id=500002&no_cache=1 ...... you'll find something amazing. It's an all time ranking for leading German international players. Lothar Matthäus is leading with 150 caps for Germany. He is followed by Jürgen Klinsmann (108 ), Jürgen Kohler (105), Franz Beckenbauer (103) and Joachim Streich (102). Didn't Joachim Streich played for East Germany? Yes he did, but yet he's fifth most capped German national team player according to the official website of German FA.

http://www.dfb.de/index.php?id=500005&no_cache=1 ....shows the leading German national team goalscorers. Gerd Müller leads with 68 goals, followed by Joachim Streich (55).

http://www.dfb.de/index.php?id=500000&no_cache=1 ......shows Germany's overall record, but former East Germany matches are not included here. But if you click the "Rekordspieler" button you'll be linked to.... http://www.dfb.de/index.php?id=500000&no_cache=1&lang=D&action=showRecordPlayer&liga=Nationalmannschaft&cHash=5f899cff50 .....and you'll see appearing the name Joachim Streich (and former East German national team players) again.

So now I am wondering how many matches Germany played against i.e. Netherlands so far? Is it 37 or 46?

Last Edited By: Fast Midfielder May 8 17 7:09 PM. Edited 1 time

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#1 [url]

Jan 1 09 7:34 PM

You can look at this matter in two ways: the official FIFA way: Germany is the same country as West-Germany and deny the matches played by the DDR. But the DDR was also Germany, altough much smaller then W.Germany.. Nobody in the DDR called themselves East-Germans, but Germans...
As the country stayed Deutsche Bundesrepublik, I can understand that FIFA and the world consider this the same country and the DDR disappeared. But I do not agree calling the USSR and Russia the same country, also not in football statistics. Fot me the USSR matches does not count as matches for Russia, it is in fact a different country.
I hope I do not make things to complicated, but the same goes for Czechoslovakia: it disappeared and two new countries emerged...

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#2 [url]

Jan 1 09 9:40 PM

I don't think you make things complicated. About Germany I would like to quote Charles de Gaulle said once: "I like Germany so much that I am glad there are two of them". What I want to say is: both BRD and DDR represented Germany.

Former USSR and Russia is a different matter. Russian FA was founded 1912 as Russian FA, Former USSR took over Russia's FIFA membership and Russia took over USSR's. By the way: Pre-communist Russia included the Baltic States, Kaukasian Republics, Central Asian Republics and Ukraine. That's why I include USSR results with Russia, but I can understand your statement.

About Czechoslovakia/Czechia. Czech FA was founded 1901. Czechoslovakia took over Bohemia's FIFA membership and Czech Republic Czechoslovakia's. Just like Czech FA I also include Czechoslovakia's matches with Czechia, but I can understand your statement.

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#3 [url]

Jan 3 09 8:48 PM

I have personally completely different view on the matter, even different from most of the official ones represented by concerned FA's. Russia matches are those before 1918 and after 1991, between not. Czech matches are those before 1918 and after 1992, between not. Germany matches are those before 1945 and after 1990, between these dates there was no Germany. I can hardly understand the standpoint of German FA as Jürgen Sparwasser must have scored for Germany against Germany in 1974 in this case.
Besides, citizens of GDR were officially not Germans but "DDR-Bürger".

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#4 [url]

Jan 3 09 10:39 PM

This is a matter we can have endless discussions about. Concerning Germany I can understand your statement as DDR have been a separate state for over four decades.

The facts about Germany are some complicated. After WW2 Germany was divided into 4 sections: British, French, US and Soviet. But it still was one Germany. On 23 May 1949 British, French and US section formed Bundesrepublik Deutschland (West Germany). On 7 October 1949 Soviet section did not join BRD, but declared an independent DDR.

I agree with you East German citizens were DDR citizens. But there are evidences they felt temselves Germans. A clear evidence is in the (West)German book "Fußball-Weltmeistershaft 1974" on page 30. It was taken on 10 October 1971 in Warsaw during the Poland 1-3 (West) Germany match as many East Germans supported Germany, not West Germany.
Most of the former DDR citizens I met told me they always felt themseves Germans. Not the young ones only, also most of the pre 1950 born.

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#5 [url]

Jan 6 09 3:52 PM

To me it's not a complicated matter. The DFB link has a column on the right with DFV to indicate East Germany players. It that column was missing, then it would be more confusing.

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#7 [url]

Jan 7 09 10:20 PM

I asked German FA about:

"bitte können Sie mir antworten warum in die Rangliste der DFB Rekordnationalspieler auch DDR Spieler sind aufgeführt, aber die Länderspielbilanzen BRD + DDR getrennt sind?"
-> which mans: please can you tell me why DFB lists of most German capped players and leading goalscorers include DDR players, whilst statistical balance BRD and DDR are seperated?

DFB answered:
,,die Spieler der DDR Auswahl sind ja in der entsprechenden Statistik ebenfalls kenntlich gemacht. Eine weitere Trennung scheint uns da nicht sinnvoll."
-> DDR team players are named as well in the suitable statistics. Further seperation looks not significant to us.

Please keep in mind Dutch is my first language, German my second (I have servd Dutch army for one year in Germany) and English my third, which makes a proper translation a bit difficult.

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#8 [url]

Jan 8 09 8:17 PM

Fast Midfielder wrote:
,,die Spieler der DDR Auswahl sind ja in der entsprechenden Statistik ebenfalls kenntlich gemacht."

It means rather that the GDR names are marked distinctly in the record.

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#10 [url]

Jan 11 09 10:17 PM

I can't. They can probably in that way that he was scorer of one of German national teams.

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#11 [url]

Jan 31 09 1:56 PM

On Wikipedia I found the lyrics of former East German national anthem. As you can read they also consider Germany as their fatherland:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auferstanden_aus_Ruinen

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TheRoonBa

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#12 [url]

Jan 31 09 2:24 PM

I don't find it surprising, as Germany was united before the War. I don't think the German people decided to divide, it was decided by other countries for political reasons.

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#13 [url]

Jan 31 09 10:28 PM

mcruic wrote:
I don't find it surprising, as Germany was united before the War. I don't think the German people decided to divide, it was decided by other countries for political reasons.


Right

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#14 [url]

Mar 7 09 1:19 PM

It is quite clear both East and West Germans regarded themselves Germans. As there have been two Germanies in the 1949-1990 era this country has been represented by two different sides then. It is known West-German gouvernment intended Germany to reunite all these years, but the same goes for former East-Germany. Each side wanted to do this its way.
When I went to Germany recently I bought a book about 100 years of German national football team (1908-2008 ) edited by German FA. This book include East German matches as well. All players that ever represented Germany are mentioned. Watch i.e. Matthias Sammer player profile, which says he played 74 A for Germany (first cap 19-11-1986 DDR - France, last cap 07-06-1997 Ukraine - Germany). There is no indication he played 23 matches for DDR and 51 for (United) Germany. The only way to find out is browsing all line ups for both sides.

After all, I would say scores behind Germany should include both DFB represented (West-) Germany and DFV represented East-Germany. As East and West played on 22-06-1974 we will get the odd situation Germany played against itself, notably at a Worldchampionships organised by the western part of the country smiley-embarassed.gif

Last Edited By: Fast Midfielder May 8 17 7:13 PM. Edited 1 time.

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#15 [url]

Mar 11 09 6:25 PM

Germany overall records 5 April 1908 - 11 March 2009

Albanië 17 15 2 0 45-12
Algerije 6 3 1 2 15-8
Argentinië 19 5 6 8 24-27
Armenië 2 2 0 0 9-1
Australië 3 3 0 0 9-3
België 31 21 3 7 61-33
Birma 1 1 0 0 5-1
Bolivia 2 1 0 1 2-2
Bosnië-Herzegovina 1 0 1 0 1-1
Brazilië 24 3 6 15 25-47
Bulgarije 40 21 10 9 80-47
Canada 5 5 0 0 18-2
Chili 10 6 1 3 18-11
China 1 1 0 0 1-0
Colombia 5 3 2 0 12-5
Cuba 1 1 0 0 5-0
Costa Rica 1 1 0 0 4-2
Cyprus 6 5 1 0 29-1
Denemarken 30 16 4 10 59-43
Ecuador 4 2 1 1 9-6
Egypte 8 5 0 3 24-6
Engeland 31 10 6 15 37-54
Estland 3 3 0 0 11-1
Faerøer 2 2 0 0 4-1
Finland 28 19 6 3 100-26
Frankrijk 30 10 8 12 46-46
Georgië 3 3 0 0 8-1
Ghana 3 2 0 1 10-4
Griekenland 16 11 3 2 29-14
Guinee 1 1 0 0 3-2
Hongarije 49 15 14 20 83-94
Ierland 16 7 4 5 25-21
Indonesië 2 1 1 0 5-3
Irak 6 1 4 1 9-5
Iran 2 2 0 0 4-0
Israël 3 3 0 0 10-1
Italië 33 8 10 15 36-49
Japan 2 1 1 0 5-2
Kameroen 2 2 0 0 5-0
Koeweit 2 2 0 0 9-1
Korea 3 2 0 1 5-5
Kroatië 8 5 1 2 18-10
Letland 3 2 1 0 6-1
Liechtenstein 3 3 0 0 23-3
Litouwen 2 1 1 0 3-1
Luxemburg 18 17 0 1 78-13
Mali 1 1 0 0 2-1
Malta 13 12 1 0 56-5
Marokko 9 5 0 4 17-13
Mexico 17 8 7 2 29-15
Moldavië 4 4 0 0 18-3
Nederland 46 15 15 16 82-80
Nieuw-Zeeland 1 1 0 0 2-1
Nigeria 1 1 0 0 1-0
Noord-Ierland 14 8 4 2 32-13
Noorwegen 27 18 6 3 65-25
Oekraïne 4 2 2 0 7-2
Oman 1 1 0 0 2-0
Oostenrijk 41 22 10 9 81-58
Paraguay 1 1 0 0 1-0
Peru 1 1 0 0 3-1
Polen 35 18 8 9 56-34
Portugal 19 9 5 5 29-22
Roemenië 31 18 6 7 69-41
Rusland 34 17 7 10 64-40
Saarland 2 2 0 0 6-1
San Marino 2 2 0 0 19-0
Saoedi-Arabië 2 2 0 0 11-0
Schotland 21 9 6 6 25-26
Servië 33 17 6 10 57-43
Slovenië 1 1 0 0 1-0
Slowakije 9 7 0 2 21-9
Spanje 23 9 8 6 28-22
Sri Lanka 1 1 0 0 12-1
Thailand 1 1 0 0 5-1
Tsjechië 40 21 10 9 71-58
Tunesië 8 5 2 1 15-2
Turkije 23 13 4 6 48-22
Uruguay 15 9 4 2 31-13
Verenigde Arabische Emiraten 2 2 0 0 7-1
Verenigde Staten 10 8 0 2 23-14
Wales 20 11 6 3 32-17
Wit-Rusland 1 0 1 0 2-2
IJsland 15 12 2 1 37-6
Zuid-Afrika 3 2 1 0 7-2
Zweden 39 17 8 14 70-61
Zwitserland 55 40 7 8 148-63
Totaal 1114 606 234 274 2320-1334

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#16 [url]

Mar 12 09 8:52 PM

As I understand this is a record counted from both national teams in the era of being divided. In such a case the whole thing has got only an anectodal significance.

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#17 [url]

Mar 12 09 9:33 PM

siepacz wrote:
As I understand this is a record counted from both national teams in the era of being divided. In such a case the whole thing has got only an anectodal significance.

This record count both DFB representation (Germany 1908-1942, West-Germany 1950-1990, Germany 1990-onwards) and DFV representation (East-Germany 1952-1990). Your opinion concerning this matter always have been as clear as cristal. I explained why I include both DFB and DFV matches into Germany's overall record. With various examples. Please don't let we make an "it is" or "it is not" discussion about this. You can look upon this matter different ways.

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#19 [url]

Jun 1 09 9:18 AM

Of course and no problem at all

Untill a year ago I always separated DFB (Germany 1908-1942, West-Germany 1950-1990 and Germany 1990-onwards) and DFV (East-Germany 1952-1990) records. The reason why included West-German records in Germany's overall records was both West-Germany's and post 1990 Germany's official name is range">Bundesrepublik Deutschland. Before 1990 I was used to include pre 1942 German results with West-Germany records as West-German media always have done so. West-Germany was also regarded as the successor of the German Reich.

The - for me decisive - reason to include East-German records into Germany's overall records began when I saw on DFB website German FA have done so. But for me the main reason is that the East-Germans felt themselves Germans as well. Both the common people from East and West-Germany could not help their country was divided for over 40 years. Both in East and West people always wanted a (re)united Germany. Do I back my decision for the fully 100% to include East-German records with Germany's overall records? No, becuase this will deny former East-Germany's existence. Even though many (western orientated) countries did not recognize East-Germany untill the 1970s it have been an independent state in the 1949-1990 era. Besides the lyrics of former East-German national anthem show at least seven times the word Deutschland, which obviously make clear East-Germans also regard themselves as Germans.

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#20 [url]

Jun 17 09 9:24 PM

How do you resolve the 1974 World Cup game in the totals, then?

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