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#21 [url]

Jun 17 09 9:29 PM

See the overall records 5 April 1908 - 11 March on top of this page. I did not include them because it is quite weird to play against yourself.

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#22 [url]

Jun 17 09 9:38 PM

Yes, I see, but what about individual appearances and Streich's goal?

No disrespect intended, but in my humble opinion the two national teams were governed by two separate national associations and were treated as fully separate for all purposes as long as East Germany existed. The same applies to individual player records. For example Ulf Kirsten is treated as having 100 caps, but only by virtue of playing for two national teams; he did not obtain 100 caps for "Germany" only.

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#23 [url]

Jun 17 09 9:50 PM

I think I explained on more occasions in this topic why I include East-German records into German records. Indeed, both (West-) Germany and East-Germany have been seperate nations, but both represented Germany. Please read following.

Fast Midfielder wrote:
Untill a year ago I always separated DFB (Germany 1908-1942, West-Germany 1950-1990 and Germany 1990-onwards) and DFV (East-Germany 1952-1990) records. The reason why included West-German records in Germany's overall records was both West-Germany's and post 1990 Germany's official name is range">Bundesrepublik Deutschland. Before 1990 I was used to include pre 1942 German results with West-Germany records as West-German media always have done so. West-Germany was also regarded as the successor of the German Reich.

The - for me decisive - reason to include East-German records into Germany's overall records began when I saw on DFB website German FA have done so. But for me the main reason is that the East-Germans felt themselves Germans as well. Both the common people from East and West-Germany could not help their country was divided for over 40 years. Both in East and West people always wanted a (re)united Germany. Do I back my decision for the fully 100% to include East-German records with Germany's overall records? No, becuase this will deny former East-Germany's existence. Even though many (western orientated) countries did not recognize East-Germany untill the 1970s it have been an independent state in the 1949-1990 era. Besides the lyrics of former East-German national anthem show at least seven times the word Deutschland, which obviously make clear East-Germans also regard themselves as Germans.

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#24 [url]

Jun 18 09 5:31 AM

Well, all the better for Poland, since we can at least have the satisfaction of beating Germany In truth, we have never beaten (West) Germany, but did so on numerous occasions against the East German team, including DDR's first game in 1952, the Olympic Games group stage in 1972, and WC qualifiers (twice) in 1981.

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#25 [url]

Nov 7 09 8:30 PM

silvermane wrote:
No disrespect intended, but in my humble opinion the two national teams were governed by two separate national associations

Indeed, but both associations represented Germany. In the 1950-1990 era DFB represented the Western part of the country, in the 1952-1990 era DFV represented the Eastern part.

Besides not only Germany have been represented by different association. Greece i.e. played at the 1920 Olympics under auspicious of the Greek gymnastics federation. Ireland played untill 1923 under auspicious of IFA, in 1924 under auspicious of Olympic Council of Republic of Ireland and from 1926 onwards under auspicious of FAI.

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#27 [url]

Nov 7 09 10:00 PM

trekky76 wrote:
By the same logic you should merge records of both Yemens, Vietnams, Chinas and Koreas.

No, there is still no logic to your reasoning.

According to your opinion there is still no logic in my reasoning, but if you say something like that please can you motivate this instead of just saying? Most of us know the split up of Germany, Korea and Vietnam was a result of international politics (USA and its allies on one side and USSR and its allies on the other side). As a result of these international politics countries like Germany were not able to have a united team. Nevertheless in both Germanies people felt themselves Germans, in both Vietnams Vietnamese and in both Koreas people feel themselves Koreans. These people have not asked to live in a divided country. And it is not fair at all only one part has the "right" to represent all of the country.

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TheRoonBa

Posts: 5,526 Site Admin

#28 [url]

Nov 7 09 11:59 PM

I don't think any part has the right to represent the whole country - but the records should be treated separately in my opinion. When East Germany and West Germany entered World Cup qualifying, they were competing against each other - even if the people both felt they were representing Germany.

Also, it was easier to get selected for East Germany than it was for West Germany (less people in East Germany) and therefore a cap for East Germany is not equivalent to a cap for West Germany (also, there is the issue that West Germany were a stronger national team). So, someone who has played 20 times for East Germany may not even have been selected once for a united Germany. Therefore, how can we say that someone who played 20 times for West Germany and someone who played 20 times for East Germany are somehow equivalent in achievement?

Whether or not the people wanted to be separate is not really relevant. The teams played under the restrictive rules in force at the time - i.e. - players from the East played for DDR, and those from the West played for FRG. The teams played as 2 separate national teams. Just as, for example, Hong Kong and Macao continue to play separately from China, there would be no question of their results being included in the China total - even though the people themselves might feel Chinese, they compete against China in the Asian Cup and World Cup.

Also, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are independent in terms of football. But if one day they lost this footballing independence, it would be strange to include all players' caps together, as at the time they were playing, they were not playing for a United Kingdom team, because it did not exist. Similarly, the FRG and DDR players were not playing for a Germany team, because at that point in time, politically, it did not exist.

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#29 [url]

Nov 8 09 9:03 AM

"According to your opinion there is still no logic in my reasoning, but if you say something like that please can you motivate this instead of just saying?"
I think the motivation is already there and Mark gives us a more detailed motivation. Holland an dBelgium once were one country (before 1830); no one will merge their football results together. International politics are facts and are made by people , also by people from Germany , Korea , Vietnam and not only by USSR and USA.
Syria and Egypt have been more recently one country : UAR....
So there is no 100% logical solution to this issues...

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#30 [url]

Nov 8 09 9:38 AM

pieter wrote:
Holland an dBelgium once were one country (before 1830); Syria and Egypt have been more recently one country : UAR....

Mark's motivation is a good one, but yours is a different one and not fully comperative. Both in former East- and West-Germany people were Germans. Germany was in both its names, which does not goes for Austria and Saar (that's why I never think about merging Austrian and Saar results into German ones) which have been (Austria 1938-1945) and are (Saar 1919-1936 and from 1957 onwards) part of Germany.

However, both in Holland and Belgium together people were and are not Dutch. In Holland people are Dutch, in Belgium they are Belgians (or Flemish and Wallonians, whatever you want). People in Syria are not Egyptians and in Egypt not Syrians. To me that's quite a different.

pieter wrote:
So there is no 100% logical solution to this issues...
You are right and there never will be, which I admitted when I replied siepacz earlier about this matter:

Fast Midfielder wrote:
The - for me decisive - reason to include East-German records into Germany's overall records began when I saw on DFB website German FA have done so. But for me the main reason is that the East-Germans felt themselves Germans as well. Both the common people from East and West-Germany could not help their country was divided for over 40 years. Both in East and West people always wanted a (re)united Germany. range">Do I back my decision for the fully 100% to include East-German records with Germany's overall records? No, becuase this will deny former East-Germany's existence. Even though many (western orientated) countries did not recognize East-Germany untill the 1970s it have been an independent state in the 1949-1990 era. Besides the lyrics of former East-German national anthem show at least seven times the word Deutschland, which obviously make clear East-Germans also regard themselves as Germans.

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TheRoonBa

Posts: 5,526 Site Admin

#33 [url]

Nov 8 09 12:46 PM

If we go back 1 million years, there are no countries, so we can just put all international matches in 1 big group. Then we can all be free from our archives and live in the forest on berries and nuts. :-D

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#34 [url]

Nov 8 09 12:59 PM

pieter wrote:
They always have been separate countrys.

Have they always been? First France conolized a part which is present Congo aka Congo-Brazaville, later Belgium conolized the rest which now is DR Congo aka Congo-Kinshasa and Zaire.

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#35 [url]

Nov 8 09 1:49 PM

I meant since colonisation; the separate kingdoms (or states) in Africa before colonisation didi not (always) had the same borders as after colonisation. That explains a lot of conflicts , but football begins after colonisation, so we only can accept the actual situation.... But it is possible that both Congo's had a commun history before (partly)

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#36 [url]

Nov 8 09 2:42 PM

My point is you need to be consistent in your logic in order for it to make sense. FRG and GDR were two separate countries. You may argue it is one country and two FA's but that is not how it works. A country is not the same as a nation. FIFA has countries as members, not nations. Otherwise the Sápmi and likes could be members as well.

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#37 [url]

May 2 10 8:54 PM

OK, this means German FA is not consistent. How can you explain following according to the book about 100 years of German national football team (1908-200 notably edited by German FA? It says Matthias Sammer i.e. played 74 A for range">Germany (first cap 19-11-1986 DDR - France, last cap 07-06-1997 Ukraine - Germany). Please take notice there is no indication he played 23 matches for DDR and 51 for (United) Germany.

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#39 [url]

May 5 10 7:34 AM

Nevertheless I still miss consistency by German FA as their rankings of both leading international players http://www.dfb.de/index.php?id=500002&no_cache=1 and goalscorers http://www.dfb.de/index.php?id=500005&no_cache=1 matches played by former East-Germany are included. How can you explain according to DFB ranking a player like Matthias Sammer played 74 full A matches for Germany, as he played 51 for FRG/Germany? This implies the 23 he played for East-Germany are included as you can see on DFB website http://www.dfb.de/index.php?id=500002&no_cache=1&lang=D&action=showPlayer&liga=Nationalmannschaft&vorname=M.&nachname=Sammer&cHash=25c0adb170. OK, a distinction has been made between DFB ((West-) Germany) and DFV (East-Germany), yet DFV matches and goals are included as well.

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#40 [url]

Aug 9 10 4:03 PM

Straits Times, 15 October 1951
London, Sunday - FIFA admits East Germany provisionally, announced yesterday.
FIFA stated - "The committee accepts the provisional affiliation of the football section of the sports movement of the German democratic republic, it being understood that there can only be one German team in the World Cup."

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