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#21 [url]

Jan 8 09 11:28 PM

mcruic wrote:
I think if we have the lineups, we can decide ourselves whether to count the matches as official (for example, if an FA decides not to include a match because of a poor performance, then we can see that it was their normal national team, and include it as an A match. In this situation, I don't think it matters if either FA counts it as official. If both teams play with their normal national team players, the match should be regarded as official - regardless of what the FAs have to say (as long as the game lasts the normal 90 minutes). As you have found yourself (with Israel 7-1 Finland), there seems to be no reason why Finland should not count the match, yet they don't - so we should just ignore this fact, and count it as an A match anyway, especially if we know the team lineup.


"as long as the game lasts the normal 90 minutes":
I don't agree. Until 1964 all the Asian Nations Cup games lasted only 80 minutes. However they are recognized as official by all the involving FAs and by FIFA. It will be absurd not to count them.

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#23 [url]

Jan 9 09 8:34 AM

Not accurate:
1. Georgios Dedes was 26 years old (born 1943) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giorgos_Dedes
2. The coach was Greek national coach Dan Georgiadis.
3. One of my sources wrote: "This will be the return game between the 2 teams who drew 3-3 last March in Jaffa. However this evening Greek players with age of under 23 will appear on behalf of the Greek NATIONAL team. By doing so the Greek FA gave up to the top clubs who asked to release their stars as the league is about to end"

So maybe in fact it was Greece U-23 (strenghtened by one senior player), but officially it was Greece national team (though not recognized as official by the Greek FA).

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#24 [url]

Jan 9 09 6:02 PM

I saw in Greek records this match was classified as official U23 international. However, if the Greek FA intended its full A team to play you are right. But FIFA allows in such cases to change arrangements untill 48 hours beforet he kick-off.

Probably a similar kind of situation occured in the 1986-87 season as Dutch and Czech FA arranged two full A internationals between both nation that season. 10-09-1986 in Prage and 15-04-1987 in Rotterdam.
The first match was played between bouth nation's full side. About two months before the return Dutch FA changed the arrangent by replacing A team by Olympic team. The venue moved to Leeuwarden.

Both Dutch and Czech FA does not regard this return match as official A international. In Dutch records it counts as Olympic team international. None of the Dutch, and Czechs, did not even thought about including this match on the list of full A international.

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TheRoonBa

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#25 [url]

Jan 9 09 6:05 PM

yaniv wrote:
mcruic wrote:

"as long as the game lasts the normal 90 minutes":

I don't agree. Until 1964 all the Asian Nations Cup games lasted only 80 minutes. However they are recognized as official by all the involving FAs and by FIFA. It will be absurd not to count them.


Yes, I agree. I just meant to say that the game lasted however long it was meant to last for. Some early African games (Gossage Cup I think) lasted only 60 minutes.

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#26 [url]

Jan 10 09 8:48 AM

yaniv,

please can you tell me why following matches are not regarded official A bij Israelian FA?

03/05/1954 Northern Rhodesia Away 0-0
05/05/1954 Southern Rhodesia Away 1-2
09/05/1954 Southern Rhodesia Away 2-1
13/09/1967 Romania Away 1-3
25/12/1968 Romania Home 4-5
31/12/1968 Romania Home 1-0
23/02/1969 Sweden Home 1-0
20/12/1972 Romania Home 2-1
28/03/1973 Romania Away 1-3
04/02/1981 Austria Home 1-0

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#27 [url]

Jan 10 09 10:53 AM

I don't know.
IFA is so inconsistent in deciding which game is official and which is not.
It's not only in games against national teams but also against U-23 and B teams.
For example:
17/2/1971 Italy U-23 vs Israel 2-0 is official
9/4/1969 Israel vs Italy U-23 2-0 is unofficial

19/10/1966 Holland U-23 vs Israel 4-1 is official
8/9/1971 Holland U-23 vs Israel 2-0 is unofficial

And a bigger problem is games which were played by Israel Olympic team. Some of them appear in IFA "A" games list while others don't.
For example, those 2 were friendlies:
18/4/1978 Israel (Olympic) vs Holland Olympic 2-0 is official
13/2/1978 Israel (Olympic) vs Denmark (national) 1-0 is unofficial

Another game which is official for IFA:
2/1/1964 Hong Kong League XI vs Israel 0-3
Hong Kong League XI consisted of players from HK and Taiwan.

And there are many other cases.

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#28 [url]

Jan 10 09 11:14 AM

More than 90% of the Israeli players in these games were internationals.
Line-ups:

03/05/1954 Northern Rhodesia Away 0-0
05/05/1954 Southern Rhodesia Away 1-2
09/05/1954 Southern Rhodesia Away 2-1
No info unfortunately...
Maybe the reason that IFA didn't recognize the games is that Northern and Southern Rhodesia were not indepndent countries. But I don't know.

13/9/1967 Romania Away 1-3
Itzhak Visoker - Dani Shmulevich-Rom, Itzhak Drucker, Shmuel Rosenthal, Menahem Bello, Moshe Asis, Giora Spiegel, Mordechai Spiegler, Rahamim Talbi, George Borba, Reuven Young

25/12/1968 Romania Home 4-5
Haim Levin (Yehiel Hameiri, 38 ) - Shraga Bar, Zvi Rozen, Itzhak Drucker, Menahem Bello - Shmuel Rosenthal, Mordechai Spiegler, Giora Spiegel - Rahamim Talbi, Yehoshua Feigenbaum, Reuven Young. Substitutes: Arie Peled, Gidon Goldberg

31/12/1968 Romania Home 1-0
Yehiel Hameiri - Shraga Bar, Yeshaayahu Schwager (Shimon Ben-Yehonatan, 88 ), Shmuel Rosenthal, Menahem Bello - Giora Spiegel, Mordechai Spiegler, Roni Shuruk - Rahamim Talbi, Yehoshua Feigenbaum, Reuven Young

23/02/1969 Sweden Home 1-0
Haim Levin - Shraga Bar, Zvi Rozen, Shmuel Rosenthal, Menahem Bello - Giora Spiegel (Itzhak Shum, 46), Mordechai Spiegler, Roni Shuruk - Rahamim Talbi, Yehoshua Feigenbaum, Reuven Young

20/12/1972 Romania Home 2-1
Itzik Visoker - Avraham Gindin, David Primo, Zvi Rozen, George Borba - Itzhak Shum, Yehuda Shaharabani, Yehoshua Feigenbaum - Gidi Damti, Moshe Onana, Rahamim Talbi (Itzhak Blum, 55)

28/03/1973 Romania Away 1-3
Itzik Visoker - Avraham Gindin, David Primo, Zvi Rozen, George Borba - Itzhak Shum, Yehuda Shaharabani - Gidi Damti, Zvi Farkas, Meir Barad, Moshe Onana

04/02/1981 Austria Home 1-0
Arie Haviv - Shlomo Kirat, Haim Bar, Itzhak Shum, Noah Einstein - Yaacov Ekhoiz, Dori Almog (Nissim Cohen, 46), Gadi Machness - Beni Tabak, Israel Fogel, Rafi Eliyahu (Beni Lam, 65)
Austria didn't field it's best players, so maybe IFA didn't see it as played against a national team.

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#29 [url]

Jan 10 09 12:12 PM

not being independent seems not to be a reason the matches v both Rhodesias were not counted official bij IFA. May be beacuase they were no FIFA member?

It is also strange IFA did not recognize the other matches. It certainly could not have been they decided not to do so afterwards because of the result (like former DDR sometimes did). 1-0 win over Sweden in 1969, 2-1 win over Romania in 1972 and 1-0 win over Austria in 1981 were fine results at the time.

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#30 [url]

Jan 10 09 3:41 PM

13/9/1967 Romania Away 1-3
Romania: Necula Raducanu - Dan Anca (Ioachim Popescu), Ion Nunweiller, Ion Barbu, Mihai Mocanu, Vasile Gergely, Iordan Angelescu (Lucian Strîmbeanu), Mircea Lucescu, Florea Dumitrache, Constantin Iancu, Tiberiu Kallo (Aurelian Cuperman)
If I'm not wrong only 7 of the players were internationals at the date of the game.
I have a newspaper report, which wrote (in Hebrew):
"Israel national team lost its friendly today to the Romanian League selection 1-3 ... The game was unofficial though the Israeli flag was flown and the teams wore their national clothings"

25/12/1968 Romania Home 4-5
A report I have wrote that it was played against Romania League Stars selection but when looking at the Romanian line-up it seems exactly like the national team.
Romania: Gheorghe Gornea (Ilie Datcu) - Lajos Satmareanu, Alexandru Boc, Ion Barbu (Nicolae Pantea), Mihai Mocanu - Vasile Gergely, Cornel Dinu - Mircea Lucescu, Emerich Dembrovschi, Florea Dumitrache (Favius Domide), Radu Nunweiller
Maybe both FAs decided before the game that it would not be official, otherwise I can't understand why Romania stood as "Romania League Stars selection". But it's not clear to me why Israel stood as "Israel national team" if this is the case.

31/12/1968 Romania Home 1-0
My report wrote "Romanian League Selection".
Romania: Gheorghe Gornea - Lajos Satmareanu, Alexandru Boc, Cornel Dinu, Mihai Mocanu (Augustin Deleanu) - Dan Anca, Radu Nunweiller - Nicolae Pantea, Emerich Dembrovschi, Floreaz Dumitrache (Flavius Domide), Mircea Lucescu.
Again, looks like Romania national team.

23/02/1969 Sweden Home 1-0
My report wrote that Sweden fielded 7 reserve players but there is no clue about why it's not official for Israel. A report for the game of 18/2/1969 against Sweden wrote that the return match would be played on 23/2. Maybe IFA decided afterwards not to list the game because Sweden didn't field its best team.
Sweden: Sven-Gunnar Larsson - Jan Karlsson, Leif Målberg, Björn Nordqvist (Krister Kristensson, 46), Roland Grip (Hans Selander, 46) - Jan Olsson, Anders Ljungberg - Sten Pålsson, Rolf Andersson, Ove Eklund, Lars-Göran Fjordestam

20/12/1972 Romania Home 2-1
Romania: Stere Adamache (Vasile Stan, 46) - Lajos Satmareanu, Alexandru Boc, Dumitru Antonescu, Ion Velea, Ion Dumitru (Emerich Dembrovschi, 20), Cornel Dinu, Rad Nunweiller, Mircea Lucescu, Nicolae Dobrin (Iuliu Hajnal, 46), Florea Dumitrache (Mircea Sandu, 46)
A newspaper report wrote (in Hebrew):
"Every win is sweet even if it's achieved in an unofficial game, in a friendly, and even if the opponent chooses to name himself 'Romanian League Selection' ... But even if the game was held according to the protocol and played as an international game between the national teams of Israel and Romania ... "

28/03/1973 Romania Away 1-3
No clue in the newapapers.
Romania: Raducanu Necula - Lajos Satmareanu, Stefan Sames, Cornel dinu, Iuliu Hajnal - Ion Dumitru, Aurel Beldeanu - Radu Troi, Florea Dumitrache (Vasile Aelenei, 70), Anghel Iordanescu (Constantin Dumitriu, 80), Dumitru Marcu

04/02/1981 Austria Home 1-0
"According to the agreement between the 2 FAs the game will be defined as an international competition between the national squads of Israel and Austria. The meaning is that the national anthems will not be played before the game and that there will be no official report to FIFA. This arrangement was set after a request from the Austrian FA, that is limited by the clubs in Austria in releasing players to international games (but not to international training games)."
Austria: Herbert Feurer - Johann Dihanich, Erich Obermayer, Heribert Weber, Josef Degeorgi (Nagl, 65) - Felix Gasselich, Ernst Baumeister, Kreuz - Walter Schachner (Christian Keglevits, 46), Johann Krankl, Gernot Jurtin (Gröss, 72)

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#31 [url]

Jan 10 09 4:53 PM

thanks for your reply. I think that with the exception of the match played on 28-03-1973 they all should be considered official A.

Not regarding a match because the vistors flag has flown (seems ridiculous). But the teams wore national clothings. So what?

I think, but this is a personal opinion, if a national team play as "League XI" or "All League Stars" it can be regarded as A if.
- it is the usual national team
- all players have the nationality of the country they represent.

It seems for the match v Austria only one club did not released its players. That is no reason for not regarding a match official. Elsewhere on the forum I worte about the 1995 Netherlands 0-1 Portugal match. Ajax players were released, 8 of the national team were from Ajax which was, as you know, at the time Europe's and World's best club team. Nevertheless Dutch FA even did not thought about cancelling this match as A.
By the way. How many official A matches have been played with clubs that missed players from one particular club?

I think IFA was too polite not awarding these matches as official A.

About the Sweden match in 1969 we all can have different thoughts. But the Swedes played before and after 1969 more matches in which as least 7 reserve players were fielding in the starting team. Deleting a match afterwards seem to me in general as something not done.

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#32 [url]

Jan 10 09 5:31 PM

I agree with you, except for 28/3/1973. I don't see any difference between it to the other games so I think it should be listed too.

I think that the following game should be listed too:
25/3/1970 Ethiopia - Israel 1-1
Israel decided to field reserve players and insisted that the game would not be official in spite of a previous agreement with the Ethiopians. They suggested the game would be between Jerusalem XI and Adis Ababa XI. The Ethiopians refused to that and threatened to cancel the game. Finally the Israelis gave up but the Israeli coach decided to field many reserve players anyway.
The game doesn't appear in IFA list of games.
Does anyone can confidently say if it's recognized as official by the Ethiopian FA?

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#33 [url]

Jan 10 09 6:01 PM

I only made an exception for the 28-03-1973 match as you wrote there was no clue.

Wouldn't it be a good idea to ask IFA to recognize these matches afterwards as official A, thus awarding Israel players caps for these matches afterwards?

I have send Norwegian FA a request after their reaction about the Norway 7-0 France match of 11 June 1922.

Today I also addressed to Dutch FA for such matter concerning some inofficial matches played by Netherland.

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#34 [url]

Jan 10 09 6:58 PM

The only reason I didn't do it was that I (almost) finished to compile the unofficial games list only lastly. I have to check 2 more games.

I think that IFA should revise all its list and not only these games.
Games that should be added:
03/05/1954 Northern Rhodesia Away 0-0
05/05/1954 Southern Rhodesia Away 1-2
09/05/1954 Southern Rhodesia Away 2-1
10/05/1966 Finland B Away 0-1
12/05/1966 Finland U-23 Away 2-0
13/09/1967 Romania Away 1-3
25/12/1968 Romania Home 4-5
31/12/1968 Romania Home 1-0
09/04/1969 Italy U-23 Home 2-0
23/02/1969 Sweden Home 1-0
25/03/1970 Ethiopia Away 1-1
08/09/1971 Netherlands U-23 Away 0-2
07/11/1972 Argentina B Home 3-2
20/12/1972 Romania Home 2-1
28/03/1973 Romania Away 1-3
04/02/1981 Austria Home 1-0
08/02/1988 Poland Home 2-1

Games that should be removed:
02/01/1964 Hong Kong League XI Away 3-0
18/04/1978 Netherlands Olympic Home 2-0 *
15/02/1983 Belgium Olympic Home 3-2 *
08/06/1983 West Germany Olympic Away 0-2 * (Olympics 1984 Qualifying)
30/10/1983 Portugal Olympic Home 1-0 * (Olympics 1984 Qualifying)
20/11/1983 West Germany Olympic Home 0-1 * (Olympics 1984 Qualifying)
11/01/1984 Portugal Olympic Away 1-2 * (Olympics 1984 Qualifying)
* played by Israel Olympic team

The problem with the Rhodesias games is that the Israeli line-ups are not available...

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#36 [url]

Jan 10 09 7:14 PM

Because IFA policy is to include games against U-23, Olympic, B and even amateur teams.
I'm doubtful if they will revise their list, although some years ago they added 2 forgotten games against USA from 15/9/1968 and 25/9/1968, and the game against Thailand from 9/2/1977 (which is not recognized by the Thai FA).

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#38 [url]

Jan 10 09 7:34 PM

it depends on where you want to have the so called cut-off point.

you wrote:
14/10/1948 USA XI Away 1-4 [a]
17/10/1948 USA XI Away 2-3 [b]
[a] USA XI consisted of USA Olympic strengthened by some professional players.
[b] USA XI stood as "New York All-Star Professionals", actually USA national team without some of its key players.

in case of a) I would first ask: how much Olympic team has been strenghtened. I think this situation is similar with i.e. Netherlands B 4-1 Finland, 31-10-1951. Dutch team is labelled as B, but actually this was the second match in four days between both nations. Team was changed on many places.

in case of b) if this is actual USA national team without some of its key players I would say it must be added. This match to me looks similar like Netherlands 1-0 Luxembourg, 27-03-1948. Dutch FA labelled this team as B, but it actually was A team without 2 key players. Nearly the very same Dutch selection went four months later to the London Olympics.

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#39 [url]

Jan 10 09 7:42 PM

14/10/1948
USA: Archie Strimel - Joseph Rego-Costa, Manuel Martin, Joseph Ferreira, Jimmy Smith, Walter Bahr, Bob Gormley, Ed Souza, Rolf Valtin, John Souza (Sullivan), Ben McLaughlin (Werner Mieth)

17/10/1948
USA: Gene Olaff - John O'Connell, John Kelly, Carlie Gallogly, Sol Eisner, Walter Bahr, William Sheppell (Ben Wattman), Bob Gormley, Jack Hynes, Carl Ericson, Ben McLaughlin

I think we need an American soccer expert to say what kind of teams stood for the game.
Another question is who was the coach in the game. If it was not USA national coach then the games can't be considered as played by USA.

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#40 [url]

Jan 10 09 7:53 PM

An American expert can say the best as USA hardly played matches that period. He also can answer why matches played at the Olympic Games were not regarded official by USA FA, but some friendlies they played just after the tournament was played they registeren full A.

The coach issue may be a bit tricky one. Please watch following.
http://www.rsssf.com/tablesu/usa-intres.html
Team USA hardly came in action these years. A different name may have several causes: was the coach an interim, did he took another job before the next international was played after 17-10-1948?

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