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#43 [url]

Jan 11 09 5:48 PM

08/02/1988 Israel - Poland 2-1
Officially played by Israel B, but Israel didn't have B team at that time.
The coach was national coach Miljenko Mihić who used a mixed national and U-23 team. 8 of the starting 11 belonged to the national squad and 3 were young players. Of the 7 used substitutes, 5 were from the U-23 squad and 2 from the national squad.
Israel: Adir Shamir (Boni Ginzburg, 46) - Shimon Menahem* (Raz Rabinovich*, 46), Efraim Davidi, Menashe Shimonov (Yaacov Segal, 46), Yaacov Hilel* (Meir Kadosh*, 46) - Lior Rosenthal, David Gordana* (Shlomi Amar*, 46), Eli Cohen (Meir Tsarfati*, 46), Yaacov Schwartz - Nir Levin, Eli Driks (Roni Levi*, 46)
* denotes that the player belonged to the U-23 squad.

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#44 [url]

Jan 11 09 6:19 PM

If 8 of the starting 11 belonged to the national squad and 3 were young players, I think B-team is not a good classification. I would say A team. As Ali wrote earlier. Sometimes a coach want to try some new players. This happens in particular in friendly matches.

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#45 [url]

Jan 13 09 5:09 PM

To find the cuutin point to count a match A or not, following match is a very good one to pay attention. Please also watch Netherlands pre 1950 and post 1954 line ups.

Paris, 12 maart 1953: France – Dutch pros 1-2 (1-0). 34. Saunier 1-0, 58. De Harder 1-1, 81. Appel 1-2. Referee: Eischen. Attendance 40.000.
France: Ruminski; Gianessi, Jonquet, Marche; Penverne, Gaulon; Kopa, Ujlaki, Saunier, Gardien, Deladerièrre.
Dutch pros: De Munck; Vreken, Van der Hart, De Vroet; Schaap, De Kubber; Appel, Timmermans, Van Geen, Rijvers, De Harder.

Charity match for victims 1953 Flood which costed 1835 Dutch lives. This match is one of the most legendaric one ever played by a Dutch side. This match was final encouragement to introduce professional soccer in the Netherlands, which started 14 August 1954.
This Dutch team was the strongest one that represented Netherlands in the 1950-54 era.
Initially French FA invited the Dutch national team for a charilty match 12 March 1953 at Parc des Princes, but NL already arranged an extra match with Denmark on 7 March in Rotterdam, which was aslo a charity match for the victims of the Flood that tempested Southwestern part of Netherland some weeks before. KNVB turned down the French offer. Officially because of a full agenda, but de facto they fear a very heavy defeat.
Thus Dutch professional players from French clubs asked FFF if they could play France. KNVB chairman Karel Lotsy tried everything this match did not took place, he even ordered the FFF not to play the official Dutch national anthem before the match, but the French had other thoughts.

Even though not an official international match this is one of the most legendary matches ever played by a Dutch team. Most important objective of this match: raising money for the victims of the Flood. The players of the Dutch profesionals also offered KNVB to play a charity match against full Dutch national team. KNVB turned down that offer as Mr. Lotsy said in NL not a single dog was interested in professional soccer. Another reason KNVB turned down that offer was that they fear heavy defeat for Dutch team that used to play at the time.

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#47 [url]

Jan 14 09 5:04 PM

I totally agree with you. I only put this match on the topic becuase this one is an example of a very contradictional one, also becuase of the situation in football Netherlands at the time. But as I think most of soccer lovers outside the Netherlands (where this match really is one of the most legendaric in history) and France don't know about the match, I wanted to inform them .

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#48 [url]

Jan 14 09 5:54 PM

I agree, it's always better to include information (even if labelled as unofficial), than exclude it so it remains "hidden".

Another case that is usually contradictory is that of the England Amateur team's games in the first part of the 20th century.

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#49 [url]

Jan 14 09 7:03 PM

To me the difference between England full NT and England amateur NT is very clear. In the first part of 20th century England full NT usually contained about 3 amateur players. So matches played by England amateur NT I don't consider full A international.
I think outside UK (i.e. IFFHS/FIFA) one make crucial mistake to label England full NT as England professional NT. England full NT is open to all players, England amateur NT to amateurs only.

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#50 [url]

Jan 14 09 7:32 PM

Yes, though the official lists of major countries like Netherlands, Belgium, France, Germany, Austria, etc, include matchs vs the England Amateur team.

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#51 [url]

Jan 14 09 7:42 PM

All these countries include matches v England ameteur team as full A. In Dutch and Belgian books they label the Englisch team as England (amateurs). According to Dutch statistics book Brinvest 2009, Netherlands record against England is 17-4-8-5 19-24 and v England amateur 10-2-1-7 10-43. Austria never played England amateur.

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#52 [url]

Jan 14 09 9:13 PM

Fast Midfielder wrote:
According to Dutch statistics book Brinvest 2009, Netherlands record against England is 17-4-8-5 19-24 and v England amateur 10-2-1-7 10-43. Austria never played England amateur.


Not all teams differentiate between "England" and "England Amateur" in the records... some countries count them both together simply as "England".
Yes Austria didn't play them, but also Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden did.

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#53 [url]

Jan 17 09 1:51 PM

Following a remarkable list. Sometimes it happened two nations met twice within a few days. For some reasons one or both FA's regard one match official, the other one unofficial.

12-07-1912 Russia 0-9 Hungary (unofficial for Russia that fielded some Englishmen smiley-embarassed.gif )
14-07-1912 Russia 0-12 Hungary

19-06-1914 Sweden 1-5 Hungary (unofficial for Sweden)
21-06-1914 Sweden 1-1 Hungary

21-05-1923 Sweden 2-4 England
24-05-1923 Sweden 1-3 England (unofficial for Sweden)

27-03-1932 Greece 1-2 Bulgaria
30-03-1932 Greece 2-2 Bulgaria (unofficial for Greece)

19-06-1936 Egypt 3-1 Greece
21-06-1936 Egypt 2-5 Greece (unofficial for Greece; Egypt?) So Kostas Humis saw his 4 goals not awardednono.gif

11-07-1936 Turkey 3-3 Yugoslavia (unofficial for both)
12-07-1936 Turkey 3-3 Yugoslavia

01-08-1937 Yugoslavia 3-1 Turkey
02-08-1937 Yugoslavia 3-1 Turkey (unofficial for both)

23-04-1948 Greece 1-3 Turkey
26-04-1948 Greece 2-5 Turkey (unofficial for both)

28-11-1948 Turkey 2-1 Greece
01-12-1948 Turkey 1-2 Greece (as Istanbul – Athens)

28-05-1950 Turkey 6-1 Iran
30-05-1950 Turkey 2-2 Iran (unofficial for Turkey; Iran?)

22-06-1950 Denmark 4-0 Norway
25-06-1950 Denmark 1-4 Norway (not official for Norway)

18-10-1951 Egypt 0-2 Greece
21-10-1951 Egypt 3-0 Greece (unofficial for both)

27-10-1951 Netherlands 4-4 Finland
31-10-1951 Netherlands 4-1 Finland (as Netherlands B – Finland (official B-international for Netherlands, unofficial for Finland))

25-11-1951 Greece 1-0 Egypt
28-11-1951 Greece 2-2 Egypt (unofficial for Greece; Egypt?)

28-02-1952 Greece 3-1 Turkey
02-03-1952 Greece 3-0 Turkey (as Athens – Istanbul)

16-05-1952 Turkey 0-1 Greece
18-05-1952 Turkey 4-2 Greece (unofficial for both)

16-01-1953 Egypt 1-3 Yugoslavia
18-01-1953 Egypt 3-3 Yugoslavia (unofficial for Yugoslavia; Egypt?)

14-05-1953 Argentina 3-1 England (unofficial for England)
17-05-1953 Argentina 0-0 England

08-01-1960 Egypt 0-1 Yugoslavia
10-01-1960 Egypt 0-0 Yugoslavia (unofficial for Yugoslavia; Egypt?)

02-12-1961 Hong Kong 1-2 Yugoslavia
03-12-1961 Hong Kong 1-6 Yugoslavia (unofficial for Yugoslavia; according to this site not official for Hong Kong, even not unofficial)

07-12-1961 Indonesia 1-5 Yugoslavia
10-12-1961 Indonesia 2-3 Yugoslavia(unofficial for Yugoslavia; Indonesia?)

18-12-1967 Congo Brazzaville 3-2 Romania (unofficial for Romania; Congo Brazzaville?)
24-12-1967 Congo Brazzaville 1-1 Romania

22-03-1970 Ethiopia 1-5 Israel
25-03-1970 Ethiopia 1-1 Israel (unofficial for Israel; Ethiopia?)

05-05-1972 Ethiopia 0-1 Greece (unofficial for Greece; Ethiopia?)
07-05-1972 Ethiopia 0-1 Greece

06-02-1983 Tunisia 1-0 East Germany (unofficial for East Germany because they lost nono.gif )
10-02-1983 Tunisia 0-2 East Germany

03-02-1985 Ecuador 3-2 East Germany (unofficial for East Germany because they lost nono.gif )
06-02-1985 Ecuador 2-3 East Germany

08-02-1988 Israel 2-1 Poland (unofficial for both as Israel B v Poland, though Israel fielded 8 regular A international players)
10-02-1988 Israel 1-3 Poland

04-02-1990 Norway 3-2 South Korea
09-02-1990 Norway 0-3 South Korea (unofficial for Norway; Korea?)

Last Edited By: Fast Midfielder Sep 2 14 5:42 PM. Edited 3 times.

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#55 [url]

Jan 17 09 2:48 PM

What make you doubting about the 25-03-1970 match Ethiopia - Israel?

According to my opionion it is not consequent counting one match official and the other one not. There are some exceptions like the Russia 0-9 Hungary match in 1912 as the Russians fielded some Englishmen. The Netherlands 4-1 Finland match in 1951 is one we can have endless argues about, because of Dutch line up. But I think for most of the matches both sides fielded regular A international players. And if about 4 changes were made according to the other match we can say: so what? This usually happens with matches everyone consider full A.

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#56 [url]

Jan 17 09 2:54 PM

I just said that according to my sources the game is considered official by the Ethiopian FA but not by the Israeli FA. I didn't write my personal opinion...

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TheRoonBa

Posts: 5,500 Site Admin

#59 [url]

Jan 17 09 11:24 PM

Fast Midfielder wrote:


04-02-1990 Norway 3-2 South Korea
09-02-1990 Norway 0-3 South Korea (unofficial for Norway; Korea?)


This was during the Rothmans tournament in Malta. South Korea won 2-1 against Malta on 10-02-1990. Was this Norway v South Korea match an additional friendly match WITHIN the Rothmans tournament?

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TheRoonBa

Posts: 5,500 Site Admin

#60 [url]

Jan 17 09 11:27 PM

Don't know if you have the lineups for the games, but just looking at the 1914 matches, Sweden v Hungary, Sweden made only 3 changes from the first to the second game.

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